UEFA Champions League/Europa League 14/15/16 February *** Spoilers ***

Meeeeessi
Meeeeessi
Meeeesssi

Busting a lung to get in the box to get on the end of Alves cross, I think I read earlier if he scored tonight he would tie or better the most goals in knock out stages.

*Edit*

Indeed it is

Barcelona's Lionel Messi needs just one more goal tonight to break competition record for strikes in the knockout stages
 
Shamikebab said:
But Rooney is average and always goes missing against big teams :confused:
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Always amuses me when you post stuff like that (and your continued defense of De Gea) yet you're just as bad as those you mock with your constant need to find fault with Carrick
 
THe champs league has MORE teams that are significantly worse than are in the premier league and La liga, a LOT of players scoring rates in the champs league are fantastic.

It doesn't mean players don't score against good teams in the champs league but, the winners of a pretty epically awful european league would get thrashed by even Wolves..... having a great scoring record against them doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot.

The two biggest reasons for Rooney and Messi to have good champs league records is, longevity, both are relatively young but most strikers don't start scoring 5+ goals a year in the champs league till their mid 20's, and don't often stay with a club their entire career playing in the champs league every single year....... its also no surprise that first team strikers that play in the champs league year on year....... dominate the scoring. The saying you've got to be in it to win it comes to mind.

Barca's and Utd's champs league record and number of games played over the entire time Messi and rooney have been first team has been pretty much dominating, both teams often getting to the finals meaning they are playing more games than anyone else, coupled with the relatively(to date) injury free career's just compound it.

They play in it more than anyone else, they've missed the least games, they're playing for two top teams dominating the champs league between them.
 
Tom84 said:
Always amuses me when you post stuff like that (and your continued defense of De Gea) yet you're just as bad as those you mock with your constant need to find fault with Carrick
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Not at all, I'll happily point out when Carrick is playing well (he was fantastic against Liverpool as I pointed out in the match) but I'll also point out when he's not playing well, rather than just quoting meaningless pass accuracy stats.
 
Shamikebab said:
Not at all, I'll happily point out when Carrick is playing well (he was fantastic against Liverpool as I pointed out in the match) but I'll also point out when he's not playing well, rather than just quoting meaningless pass accuracy stats.
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Given the things you blame on him for I'm surprised that you can ever see when he's played well tbh. As for meaningless passing stats when those stats are consistently around 90% then it doesn't matter if they're your mythological sideways/backwards passes or constant 40/50 yard picks out those stats prove that the player had a better than average game
 
drunkenmaster said:
THe champs league has MORE teams that are significantly worse than are in the premier league and La liga, a LOT of players scoring rates in the champs league are fantastic.

It doesn't mean players don't score against good teams in the champs league but, the winners of a pretty epically awful european league would get thrashed by even Wolves..... having a great scoring record against them doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot.
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Counting goals in the knockout stages though DM so a lot of the dross is already out. Just off the top of my head he's scored against Barca, Milan, Bayern and Chelsea so not bad really.
 
Tom84 said:
Given the things you blame on him for I'm surprised that you can ever see when he's played well tbh. As for meaningless passing stats when those stats are consistently around 90% then it doesn't matter if they're your mythological sideways/backwards passes or constant 40/50 yard picks out those stats prove that the player had a better than average game
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It's pointless arguing this.

1. You're taking the thread off topic

2. We've seen before that you're incapable of understanding that some people may have differing opinions.
 
The Europa League to get higher viewing figures than the Champions League. :D

Channel Five won't know what's hit them. :D
 
One More Solo said:
Counting goals in the knockout stages though DM so a lot of the dross is already out. Just off the top of my head he's scored against Barca, Milan, Bayern and Chelsea so not bad really.
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Well thats even more one sided then because how many teams consistently go far in the knockout stages, while Shev was at Milan they consistently did well to get to the late stages, a top striker there now wouldn't get as many.

If its only knockout stages then Messi and Rooney have probably played more than the vast majority of other players already, so again you'd expect them to be higher.

As for Barca, Chelsea, Milan, Bayern, again those are the teams you face in the knockout stages, Bendtner has scored 2 and set up 2 iirc correctly in 2 or 3 games against Barca. Scoring against a team more often than other players who aren't playing against that team is an almost worthless metric. Such has been Barca and Utd's dominance in the past 5-6 years when it comes to getting to the finals Rooney and Messi being outside the top 5 would be incredibly strange.

I don't know off the top of my head but, how many finals did Shev, or Raul play in vs Messi and Rooney?

The last and most important argument, Theo Walcott got a goal against Barca.

Consistency over similar number of games for a similar level club gives a decent measure of comparison. Playing WAY more games than other similar players and scoring more is...... expected.

I'm not saying it proves he's average but, if a guy in prem league plays 38 games and scores 10 goals, I wouldn't call him better than a guy who players 10 games and gets 10 goals.

Stats with explanation/description/relevant other stats is the best way to interpret them, single stats on their own are pretty much worthless.

Goals score, + games played in the knock out stages would tell a heck of a lot more than goals on its own.
 
I forgot DM, stats are only objective when you use them.

Having said that, I just had a look and Rooney has scored 27 CL goals and I think 13 in the knockouts, the others have scored far more overall but only a couple more in the knockouts giving Rooney a far higher percentage. Considering the others have won at least 2 CLs I would say reflects favourably on Rooney and would have saved you an essay.
 
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Shamikebab said:
It's pointless arguing this.

1. You're taking the thread off topic

2. We've seen before that you're incapable of understanding that some people may have differing opinions.
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Yet you're the one that always throws in the Rooney is average argument back at those that question his ability when he does anything good? It's got nothing to do with me failing to understand those that have a different opinion it's simply a case of me pointing out that you're a hypocrite
 
Tom84 said:
Yet you're the one that always throws in the Rooney is average argument back at those that question his ability when he does anything good? It's got nothing to do with me failing to understand those that have a different opinion it's simply a case of me pointing out that you're a hypocrite
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So you think Rooney is average :confused:
 
One More Solo said:
I forgot DM, stats are only objective when you use them.

Having said that, I just had a look and Rooney has scored 27 CL goals and I think 13 in the knockouts, the others have scored far more overall but only a couple more in the knockouts giving Rooney a far higher percentage. Considering the others have won at least 2 CLs I would say reflects favourably on Rooney and would have saved you an essay.
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No, stats are only objective when used objectively. Can you really compared Player X with 50 goals in the champs league and player Y with 10 goals, from that stat alone? Now add the games played and it becomes 50 goals in 100 games, and player Y has 10 goals in 3 games.

given MORE INFORMATION and digging just that little bit deeper you get a drastically different picture. Now look into the stats a little deeper, player X has played 100 games with consistent goal scoring, player Y may have played in one season with the best group every and scored 5 goals in two games against some utterly turd Hungarian side and he might given another 100 games score precisely no more goals.

I rarely if every hit and run with a single meaningless stat, and useless get shouted at for typing to much, then WHEN IT SUITS YOU I type to little and give meaningless stats, it really can't be both.

I use stats the same way, with analysis just about every single time, when the argument suits you, I write essays, when it doesn't, I just give out single meaningless stats.

As always its not me who flip flops around, that would be you this time.


The few bits of info you gave really didn't say much at all. Who has won 2 cl finals, how many goals and how many games have they played.

Rooney has been in 2 finals, he could have scored in both while another player was in two finals, didn't score but their team won. Being to a final itself is fairly irrelevant and as I've pointed out, Rooney has been to more finals than the vast majority of strikers who have played in the champs league. The implication and the way you worded it was such that Rooney should be lauded for being close when other players have won so many finals, while not stating how many finals Rooney has been in himself.

Games play in knockout stage + goals scored would be FAR more meaningful and may well paint Rooney in a fantastic light, I don't know as no one has bothered posting them, just an arbitrary lone stat that says nothing.
 
I don't know what is so hard to understand really. All the top 5 players have been in successful teams that have done well in Europe, which is reflected in the fact that all of them have played in at least 2 (I think all have played 3 at least but don't have the stats to hand) Champions League finals. This again suggests that all 5 have played in dominant teams as well as proving their own ability. All have played enough games to make it a good statistical sample. Rooney has scored fewer goals but his ratio of group:knockout phase goals is much more even than the others bar Messi. This does not make him better than the others but shows he tends to score as frequently in big games as others. People on this forum have accused him of not showing up for big matches. This is not true.

Also, how have I flip flopped? I've just expanded on my basic point?
 
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