UEFA Champions League/Europa League 30/1/2 April/May *** Spoilers ***

Ah yeah I see now :o

The final could go either way, Dortmund have proved they know how to beat Bayern (last season at least) but they're a young side and the occasion could end up being too big for them. Fascinating final and it promises to be a lot better than last years which I called at the time would be a borefest and so it turned out (until it went to extra time)
 
Barca's biggest problem, for 4 years, has been Messi's ego. While people love to bang on about Ronaldo, he occassionally shouts at players on the pitch, but doesn't secretly(somewhat) have players shipped off because he doesn't like that they are scoring a few goals and getting some attention other than him, infact, he's been quite vocal in support of players not getting enough game time, like Kaka(who by name value alone was the biggest other player at the club).

Barcelona have become Messilona, its a one man team, Iniesta and Xavi so very clearly ignore great passing options over and over and over again to pass to Messi when he's own. Xavi and Iniesta aren't a patch on the players they were 3 years ago, they were far more creative, the type of play they had was far more varied, the team was more varied as a result. Sometimes Xavi would play a ball over the top, or slow the game down, or bang a pass between 5 players for someone to run onto, pass it around outside the box or run into the box and get quite a few goals. Today its, wheres Messi, pass, thats it.

The problem is, as they've become more and more, and more and more Messi focused, the team is almost inept without him. He played in the first leg when he shouldn't of, was terrible and somehow the manager didn't sub him, out of IMHO fear. Tonight Messi was happy to sit on the bench and not come on, because if he played and they got thrashed again, it would look bad for him. He's a great player, but building a team revolved around one player, where you move top notch players on because his ego can't take it, and thus having a team that can't play at all without him, is simply bad. You can't pretend that Messi would always be fit, him and Ronaldo have been nothing short of phenomenal in terms of injury records, but this injury made them look really poor when it counted.

Bayern weren't particularly good tonight, outside of 5 minutes Ribery was terrible, under/over hitting every pass, giving it away cheaply, even the PIque goal(what a muppet) was a pretty poor pass when it was really a simple ball to the guy coming in at the back post. The cross for Muller was spot on though, Robben didn't have his best game, but got a fantastic goal. Muller got a goal yet was, for him, no where near his best, Mandzukic was pretty woeful tonight and in general their attacking play wasn't a patch on the first game, yet they still strolled to a 3-0 win away from home.
 
Seriously DM? I don't think anyone would even consider that as the problem. Barca's three main problems are clearly that:

1) they can't defend. The only reason they don't get found out more at the back is that nearly all Spanish teams are woeful at the back so Barca look good in comparison, and because their possession normally hides their defensive frailties.

2) they have absolutely no height at all, so consequently can't defend against big teams and are predictable when going forwards. How many times when Barca are struggling do we see them play it wide and then cut it back to the edge of the box? It's become pretty predictable. Shouldn't have ever sold Yaya Toure, he's exactly what they need.

3) they have no plan B. There was no urgency from Barca at any point tonight. At least Real gave it a go last night, whereas Barca went out with a whimper. They just keep on playing short pass after short pass, often not very cutting or incisive in the hope that they can exhaust the opposition and then hit them out of the blue.

This summer they have to prioritise tall players who can still play within their tiki-taka system, and more importantly than anything they need to add some height to that defence.
 
It's got to be more than they've simply just been 'found out', we knew how to play them back in 2011 but it didn't help us a jot.

They've certainly lost that intensity to hunt the ball when they don't have possession but maybe they're all just knackard from playing so much football over the past 5 years? Whatever the reason I think it's a little early to be writing the obituaries like Redknapp was doing on Sky earlier :/
 
It's got to be more than they've simply just been 'found out', we knew how to play them back in 2011 but it didn't help us a jot.

They've certainly lost that intensity to hunt the ball when they don't have possession but maybe they're all just knackard from playing so much football over the past 5 years? Whatever the reason I think it's a little early to be writing the obituaries like Redknapp was doing on Sky earlier :/

Most of the core of the barca team haven't had a break in years. Add to that the current fad of the Spanish squad to play freindies in south America and you got burnt out players.
 
DM- they pass to Messi because the other options are pap; why would you pass to Pedro, Tello, Adriano, Sanchez etc?

Also there pressing game is non existent now; that was their best asset IMHO.
 
It's got to be more than they've simply just been 'found out', we knew how to play them back in 2011 but it didn't help us a jot.

They've certainly lost that intensity to hunt the ball when they don't have possession but maybe they're all just knackard from playing so much football over the past 5 years? Whatever the reason I think it's a little early to be writing the obituaries like Redknapp was doing on Sky earlier :/
The team have also got older. Two of their most important players (Xavi and Puyol) are nearing the end of their careers and they've had injuries to Messi, Villa, Biscuits, Alba along with Puyol so it's not surprising to see them struggle at times.

As for Bayern, I think it was just a case of Barcelona playing a style of football that suited them. High defensive line against blisteringly quick attacking players and an underperforming midfield and Messi-less attack up against a rigid midfield and well drilled defence.

Don't think they've made the best decisions in the transfer market over the last two or three years but a full strength Barcelona is still more than a match for anyone.
 
It's got to be more than they've simply just been 'found out', we knew how to play them back in 2011 but it didn't help us a jot.

They've certainly lost that intensity to hunt the ball when they don't have possession but maybe they're all just knackard from playing so much football over the past 5 years? Whatever the reason I think it's a little early to be writing the obituaries like Redknapp was doing on Sky earlier :/

I think there are certain teams who can play and beat them, and certain teams who can't. If you look at Inter, Bayern, and Chelsea, they all play (or did, when they beat Barca), with a solid defence, two holding players, and four forward-thinking players with the quality to hurt Barca. The holding midfielders have been mobile and happy to stay compact. The middle of the pitch became stifled in each of those games, and to varying degrees of success the front four created chances, with full backs occasionally pushing on. This is where Barca's lack of height, strength, or a plan B and proper strikers is really a big problem.

That's not how Utd play, even against Barca. In 2011, you played them with wingers, and central midfielders who, while they have their qualities, aren't great at stifling play.

Similarly, if Dortmund came up against Barca, I'd expect the match to be brilliant, but Dortmund to win.

In short, Barca have been found out, but stopping them still takes a certain type of team with certain types of player. It's not a criticism of the players at the club if they can't stop Barca, it's simply that that isn't the type of football they play.
 
Messi's ego? Having players shipped off? Happy to sit on the bench? You are aware this is just something you've concocted in your head aren't you?

Hmm, liverpool fan accusing me of making something up again, with no reason. Considering lots of people think the same, and Ibra has stated as much publically in his book, and the story of Messi texting pep on the coach to, some game(forget which) saying he wanted to be played through the middle from now on. At which point Ibra got way less of the ball and Pep started ignoring Ibra when he wanted answers, then got shunted out of the club months later for a fraction of the price he was brought in for.... yeah, but once again you make a baseless accusation.


As for who Xavi/Iniesta would pass to, well in the first leg Messi was absolutely awful, yet they still passed to Messi, over and over again, like he would suddenly not be awful. What manager in the world wouldn't see Messi basically be absolutely shocking for 45 minutes and not take him off, the answer is, any manager that is in a coma. That he wasn't subbed suggests the player had the control, not the manager. He played the full game despite being by a huge margin the worst player on the pitch, can you imagine being utterly outplayed by Bayern in the only important game left in the season and you leave someone on the pitch so clearly incapable of playing well, so obviously not fit nor ready to play, yet the manager did. Aside from the player demanding to stay on and having control of if he comes off or not, give me a good reason the manager didn't yank him off the pitch.

AS said, Xavi and co kept passing to him despite it being a complete waste of time, there wasn't anyone on the pitch that day that wasn't a better option for a pass, yet they still favoured Messi....

but its all in my head. Its absolutely normal to play someone so clearly unfit, lose a game 4-0 and not take off that player, infact, it happens almost every week.....
 
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It's got to be more than they've simply just been 'found out', we knew how to play them back in 2011 but it didn't help us a jot.

They've certainly lost that intensity to hunt the ball when they don't have possession but maybe they're all just knackard from playing so much football over the past 5 years? Whatever the reason I think it's a little early to be writing the obituaries like Redknapp was doing on Sky earlier :/

Its simple, people like to give a new manager instant credit as if an old manager, and the actual players had never even seen a football before the day they took over. Mourinho with Chelsea, they started off with a great defense but were a VERY attacking team under Ranieri, they were very attacking when Mourinho took over, but essentially with every passing month they were a less attacking side, more defensive and found it more difficult to attack. Its a case of Mourinho's methods taking a long time to overwrite the previous regime. The mix of the previous attacking side + a focus on defense made them a great team, but after 2 years they just started to look dire, and boring, and overly defensive.

I think its the same here, when Pep took over you had a hugely attacking side, with pace, who played very varied football, and started to use possession to control games but were still very varied. After 3 years they became a very single minded Tika style team, Pep's methods were ingrained and the old team he took over were essentially gone. THey are now a pretty boring, single minded team which is far far less good than it was, very limited and essentially running out of ideas.

The difference between how Barca played in the first year under Pep and the last year, and how they play now is HUGE< absolutely HUGE.

Defensively, Puyol, in form Puyol destroyed strikers, dominated entire attacks, he was a freaking beast. Even when he plays injuries have pretty much meant he's rarely in form or match fit, and he's barely playing. Pique with Puyol beside him and Pique on his own, also night and day.

Alba, massively massively over rated, Abidal and Maxwell are hugely better defensively and have been huge losses(for different reasons), if Abidal can make a significant contribution next year, well he can play CB so they could be improved, but frankly they should be buying a replacement for Pique and playing whoever that is alongside Abidal.
 
Barca need a new manager, Villanova is out of his depth at this stage. They need new defenders badly, they are so fragile at the back one of the worst defensive teams i have seen. They also need good squad players who can come on and bring something different to the team and score goals.
 
Ah yeah I see now :o

The final could go either way, Dortmund have proved they know how to beat Bayern (last season at least) but they're a young side and the occasion could end up being too big for them. Fascinating final and it promises to be a lot better than last years which I called at the time would be a borefest and so it turned out (until it went to extra time)

Have they identified how badly Gotze was injured against RM yet?

That might be a significant factor in being able to score in the final if he can play

I really hope they can do it, but Bayern are going to be very hard to beat with the same team vs Real imo (excl the 1st 5 minutes lol)
 
Have Barca been spanked by Halifax Town ?

Bayern are one of the best teams in the world and if any team had the likes of Puyol, Mascherano and Messi out they would struggle aswell.

Maybe not get spanked 7-0 but to start saying Villanova is out of his depth etc is ridiculous.
 
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