"UK refusal to issue gender-neutral passports unlawful, high court told"

JBod said:
I think the biggest issue is other countries validating it.
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It could be forcing the Queen to formally put her weight behind it:

Her Britannic Majesty's Secretary of State Requests and requires in the Name of Her Majesty all those whom it may concern to allow the bearer to pass freely without let or hindrance, and to afford the bearer such assistance and protection as may be necessary.
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Or it could be that it's a lie (see below).

mjt said:
What if you have both/neither?
What if you really don't feel a man even though you have a willy, or vice versa? Unfortunately life isn't that simple for some people.
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It would be a lot simpler if it wasn't for the common insistence on pretending that sex and gender are the same thing when clearly they aren't. They're only vaguely and indirectly related.

I'll use myself as an example.

In my youth, my appearance was generally more feminine than masculine. When dressed in an ungendered manner, it was often assumed I was a woman. Sometimes even straight on face to face and very often from other angles. I had very long hair. My natural speaking voice is about medium pitch for an adult human, so that's not a clue to my sex. On the phone, I'm still frequently mistaken for a woman. I've heard recordings of myself on the phone and if I had to bet on it I'd put my money on it being a woman speaking.

That's all gender and roughly around the middle of the gender spectrums for those things.

I have worn makeup and perfume quite often. I've worn a skirt on occasion. Those things were gendered extremely strongly feminine in that time and place, but they're still gender.

I've always been male. That's sex. No matter how feminine I might be in gender in any way, I would not be female. Sex is physiological. Gender is social, mostly just fashion. They're not even remotely similar things, let alone the same thing. Also, gender isn't one thing. It's very common for a person's gender to be different in different aspects of life. I'd go as far as saying it's universal. I doubt if anyone is masculine<-->feminine to exactly the same degree in all things at all times. Even if the person doesn't change, fashion will. Playing video games, for example, used to be very masculine. Now it isn't.

A person can choose their gender and change it by their own actions. They can't choose or change their sex without quite major medical intervention. If I said I was more feminine than masculine, as an average of the gender spectrums for all things, I might be correct. I could easily change myself to make it correct. If I said I was female, I'd be lying or deluded (depending on whether or not I believed it).

All this bazillion gender=sex labels is wrong on a couple of levels. Gender and sex are different things and any single gender label for an individual is inaccurate because gender is a whole load of spectrums and not something that can be accurately summarised. What if, for example, someone is gendered strongly masculine in one thing and strongly feminine in another thing? What weighting should be assigned to each thing in order to decide on an overall gender? Does an overall gender make any sense anyway? I think it's like looking at an area of land containing a ridge 500m above sea level and a valley 100m above sea level and declaring that every square metre of the whole area is 300m above sea level because that's the average elevation.

Getting back to the passport thing...why not just remove the field entirely? Ignoring the pretence that sex is gender and vice versa and all the blathering that comes as a result of that misconception - is it genuinely relevant to the function of a passport to note the holder's sex on it? If not, just remove that field.
 
Tefal said:
[..]
Holland though they give no ****s people in full drag who look 100% nothing like thier passport that says male and has a picture e of them with facial hair dont even raise an eyebrow

Not sure if they're judt accepting or stoned
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They're either not doing their job or they've been told not to bother with passport photos at all and treat them as completely irrelevant. Which removes the whole point of a passport unless they're using some other means of identification. Without some way of matching the passport to the person holding it, passports are meaningless.
 
Angilion said:
It could be forcing the Queen to formally put her weight behind it:



Or it could be that it's a lie (see below).



It would be a lot simpler if it wasn't for the common insistence on pretending that sex and gender are the same thing when clearly they aren't. They're only vaguely and indirectly related.

I'll use myself as an example.

In my youth, my appearance was generally more feminine than masculine. When dressed in an ungendered manner, it was often assumed I was a woman. Sometimes even straight on face to face and very often from other angles. I had very long hair. My natural speaking voice is about medium pitch for an adult human, so that's not a clue to my sex. On the phone, I'm still frequently mistaken for a woman. I've heard recordings of myself on the phone and if I had to bet on it I'd put my money on it being a woman speaking.

That's all gender and roughly around the middle of the gender spectrums for those things.

I have worn makeup and perfume quite often. I've worn a skirt on occasion. Those things were gendered extremely strongly feminine in that time and place, but they're still gender.

I've always been male. That's sex. No matter how feminine I might be in gender in any way, I would not be female. Sex is physiological. Gender is social, mostly just fashion. They're not even remotely similar things, let alone the same thing. Also, gender isn't one thing. It's very common for a person's gender to be different in different aspects of life. I'd go as far as saying it's universal. I doubt if anyone is masculine<-->feminine to exactly the same degree in all things at all times. Even if the person doesn't change, fashion will. Playing video games, for example, used to be very masculine. Now it isn't.

A person can choose their gender and change it by their own actions. They can't choose or change their sex without quite major medical intervention. If I said I was more feminine than masculine, as an average of the gender spectrums for all things, I might be correct. I could easily change myself to make it correct. If I said I was female, I'd be lying or deluded (depending on whether or not I believed it).

All this bazillion gender=sex labels is wrong on a couple of levels. Gender and sex are different things and any single gender label for an individual is inaccurate because gender is a whole load of spectrums and not something that can be accurately summarised. What if, for example, someone is gendered strongly masculine in one thing and strongly feminine in another thing? What weighting should be assigned to each thing in order to decide on an overall gender? Does an overall gender make any sense anyway? I think it's like looking at an area of land containing a ridge 500m above sea level and a valley 100m above sea level and declaring that every square metre of the whole area is 300m above sea level because that's the average elevation.

Getting back to the passport thing...why not just remove the field entirely? Ignoring the pretence that sex is gender and vice versa and all the blathering that comes as a result of that misconception - is it genuinely relevant to the function of a passport to note the holder's sex on it? If not, just remove that field.
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A great post, thank you.

I also believe that it is widely accepted that sex is not B&W male or female either and that some people have non-binary physiology.
With regard the a passport, the purpose of the document is simple to prove that you are who you say you are. I would presume that this should be possible with looking down peoples pants/kickers or questioning them about their gender preferences.
 
gEd said:
A great post, thank you.

I also believe that it is widely accepted that sex is not B&W male or female either and that some people have non-binary physiology.
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Yes, a few people, but this has nothing to do with them. They might benefit as a side effect, but it's being driven by people who are male or female and are flexing political muscle and/or promoting their sex=gender=stereotypes=groupthink ideology, with the idea of group identity and fanatical labelling of people being what's most important to them, along with the power they can gain from it.
 
Jokester said:
Completely agree, it seems in the last 5-10 years that somethings been muddied and that a large portion of society are confusing what being physcially male/female is with their own sexual personality.
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Is it really a large portion of society, though? To me, it seems like a small, but rather vocal, minority who have had their voices amplified by the pervasiveness of the internet and the penchant in the media for click-bait/outrage/two-minutes-hate-style headlines.
 
gEd said:
I also believe that it is widely accepted that sex is not B&W male or female either and that some people have non-binary physiology.
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What's the scientific basis behind that then? developmental/birth defects or other disorders don't make up a new sex. Science is pretty clear about there only being two sexes.
 
Dave said:
Is it really a large portion of society, though? To me, it seems like a small, but rather vocal, minority who have had their voices amplified by the pervasiveness of the internet and the penchant in the media for click-bait/outrage/two-minutes-hate-style headlines.
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Seems to me that a wider part of society now accepts gender as sex and that there are now more than 2 sexes.

Hell, it's now a court finding making it legally acceptable.
 
spoffle said:
The simple solution is to just change it to sex and ignore gender.
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Or even better, "birth gender". Then there's no way around it.

dowie said:
thing is if they'd presented me or any of my friends a form like that when we were in school they'd almost certainly get half the boxes ticked and plenty of silly additional made up ones in the comments section...
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I'd add on attack helicopter and then tick it :D

The problem is even though many of the kids will go "lol, tick the stupid stuff". The SJW groups pushing this kind of nonsense will take it seriously and so will the government :/
 
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