United States Grand Prix 2015, Austin - Race 16/19

[Skeeter]

Seems like a fair call from RBR to me? They are not going to get enough of an advantage from new engines to outweigh the 10 place drop. They are after all just a customer of Renault, rather than being the manufacturers own team like Ferrari.

You also have to remember that Renault are asking Red Bull to run their development program that Renault will then use to make Lotus better next year. Hardly surprising that Red Bull don't want to help. The break up is a two way thing, Renault were perfectly happy to drop Red Bull and are now refusing to supply them next year too, just like Mercedes and Ferrari.

 

[Shimmy]

Updated the weather forecast in OP.



Hopefully no SC parade on race day.

 

[Luggs]

Both red cars will have a 10 place drop not just Vettel.

I only mentioned Vettel as Raikkonen has no bearing on world championship...

"If Hamilton wins in Austin with Vettel below second, the Briton will clinch his third world championship"

 

[Renton]

They are scared of ground effect. There is a reluctance to allow it due to the issues it caused with safety back in the 80's, but nobody on the board seems to have realised that the world has moved on.

Having flat bottomed, low cars with massive wings bolted to them is actually a very out dated view of aerodynamics in Motorsport. Almost everyone outside of budget single seater series have moved on to better ways. Ferrari, McLaren and Mercedes all build road cars with aero technology far more advanced than the crude bolt ons they attach to their F1 cars. Just look at the fiddly, complex front wing and massive rear wing bolted to the La Ferrari.... Oh no wait, there isn't one! Their F1 cars share more aero thinking with the F40 than anything they have built in the last 20 years.

I remember watching a documentary on the death of Senna and they talked about the down side of using ground effect, while it is pretty effective and means you could use smaller wings reducing the effect of following a car, it rely's on the cars being a precise distance from the ground and any upset in ride height would mean going from 100% down force to just the wing down force in milliseconds...pretty scary (see dangerous) on a long high down force corner like the Parabolica for instance

 

[MooMoo444]

Hmm that graphics implies that qualy is going to be a swimming pool. Might throw up an interesting grid for the race if some people don't manage to set a proper time.

 

[JRS]

The issue with rain in F1 is the flat floor and plank (its an issue in a number of other areas too!).

F1 cars have a massive, flat bottom that means they float, and then a long plank down the middle of them, mm's above the ground (or scraping it, if your RBR) that acts like a rudder. It means that as soon as there's a few mm's of standing water the floor of the cars start defining their direction, rather than the drivers steering inputs.

The plank has been there since the German GP of 1994 - it's not just it being there, it's the combination of flat floor + plank + ride heights being set veeeeeeery close to to the edge + banning of any way to alter the ride height while out on track to take account of conditions.

Allow active ride (perhaps a standard system, though I'd rather it not be) so they can alter the ground clearance to suit the conditions and a flat bottom car with a plank nailed to it becomes less of a problem. Of course the real solution is....

So the solution is to remove the plank and replace it with stategically placed skid blocks, and then remove the requirement for flat floors. Simple. Ground effect, faster cars able to follow each other, and an ability to race in more than a light drizzle, all in one!

....this, as you rightly say

I remember watching a documentary on the death of Senna and they talked about the down side of using ground effect, while it is pretty effective and means you could use smaller wings reducing the effect of following a car, it rely's on the cars being a precise distance from the ground and any upset in ride height would mean going from 100% down force to just the wing down force in milliseconds...pretty scary (see dangerous) on a long high down force corner like the Parabolica for instance

Active ride would help there as well. Though I would take issue with your example of Parabolica at Monza - the initial turn in is where you need serious downforce and it's an early one there, once your speed is increasing (and with it the downforce generated by GE) you're pretty much winding the steering off and pushing the Warp Speed Now™ button for the main straight.

A corner like the old Tamburello is where you really don't want to see a GE failure - high speed turn in, foot to the floor and very high lateral G loading. But since Tilke and the FIA between them have done away with virtually all of those corners....

 

[Aspecto]

Just watching this;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p035v8z5/f1-focus

Does anyone else find Tom Clarkson highly annoying?

 

[Terminal_Boy]

Seems like a fair call from RBR to me? They are not going to get enough of an advantage from new engines to outweigh the 10 place drop. They are after all just a customer of Renault, rather than being the manufacturers own team like Ferrari.

You also have to remember that Renault are asking Red Bull to run their development program that Renault will then use to make Lotus better next year. Hardly surprising that Red Bull don't want to help. The break up is a two way thing, Renault were perfectly happy to drop Red Bull and are now refusing to supply them next year too, just like Mercedes and Ferrari.

What happens if we get to the end of the 2015 season without RBR/TR having an engine supply deal signed?

The grid for 2016 is going to look very bare without the 4 RBR/TR cars lining up.

 

[JRS]

What happens if we get to the end of the 2015 season without RBR/TR having an engine supply deal signed?

The usual. Bernie greases the appropriate palms and they end up with Ferrari motors. They then proceed to whinge about how they aren't the full works spec/aren't as good as the Merc units/don't match the colour scheme of the car/whatever.

The grid for 2016 is going to look very bare without the 4 RBR/TR cars lining up.

Sad to say, but I'm genuinely almost hoping that this happens. Maybe then TPTB will sort the mess that they've created.

 

[Overlag]

Toto said he would like to run 3 cars anyway. Imagine a grid with 26-28 cars again.

 

[Goksly]

It wouldn't be... A few teams can barely afford 2 cars let alone 3. You'd be moving further towards a manufacture only sport; 4 or 5 teams.

 

[deuse]

No FP2 as yet because of lighting. Stewards have been told to leave their stations.
And now it's peeing down. Thanks Bernie

 

[Psycho Ned]

FP2 looks a total non starter at the moment, torrential rain and lightening around so the marshals can't work.

 

[Skeeter]

I remember watching a documentary on the death of Senna and they talked about the down side of using ground effect, while it is pretty effective and means you could use smaller wings reducing the effect of following a car, it rely's on the cars being a precise distance from the ground and any upset in ride height would mean going from 100% down force to just the wing down force in milliseconds...pretty scary (see dangerous) on a long high down force corner like the Parabolica for instance

And that's the outdated thinking that's the problem. That was the case back then with skirts and things, but we have moved on.

Look at the DeltaWing and the Nissan GTR LM for how understanding has changed. You don't need skirts anymore and using ground effect and other airflow management you can keep safe and consistent aero without any of the peakyness.

GP2, GP3 and Formula Renault all use venturi tunnels under the floor, you don't see them pitching into walls every time they clip a curb.

 

[godinman]

Bring back the fan car!

 

[Psycho Ned]

Wow proper rain! Like Japanese GP level rain.

 

[holdin09]

And that's the outdated thinking that's the problem. That was the case back then with skirts and things, but we have moved on.

Look at the DeltaWing and the Nissan GTR LM for how understanding has changed. You don't need skirts anymore and using ground effect and other airflow management you can keep safe and consistent aero without any of the peakyness.

GP2, GP3 and Formula Renault all use venturi tunnels under the floor, you don't see them pitching into walls every time they clip a curb.

It can be done as you say but if they allow ground effect then the engineers will push it to the limits (as its an open formula) and it may end up with deaths which the sport does not need. I want ground effect to happen as much as the next person but they need to find the right way for a f1 car as it much faster than anything else.

 

[MooMoo444]

The medical car looked like it was gonna aquaplane rofl.

 

[Skeeter]

It can be done as you say but if they allow ground effect then the engineers will push it to the limits (as its an open formula) and it may end up with deaths which the sport does not need. I want ground effect to happen as much as the next person but they need to find the right way for a f1 car as it much faster than anything else.

It's easy, you control the bits that might be dangerous. Like I said, a lot of other series are using elements of ground effect without everyone dying. Just saying "its too dangerous" is the mindset people need to get out of.

 

[holdin09]

It's easy, you control the bits that might be dangerous. Like I said, a lot of other series are using elements of ground effect without everyone dying. Just saying "its too dangerous" is the mindset people need to get out of.

Other formulas aren't open though. Engineers will find loopholes and exploit them.