Upgrade vs New Build: Old and older m-ITX!

[Jake_UK]

Hi folks,

I'm looking to upgrade or replace two m-ITX PCs in a few months time (as the weather starts to turn bad) so right now I'm looking for high level advice to set budget requirements/expectations or perhaps to keep an eye out for 2nd hand parts for the older machine... if that's worthwhile!

Use-case: I'm looking to upgrade or build for gaming at 3440x1440 with settings on max. quality. I don't feel the need for FPS >60. Examples of games currently in Steam wishlist or regularly played: RDR/RDR2, Atomfall, HoI4, TW series, OMD3/4, KCD1/2. My intention, after dual booting for >10 years, is to finally ditch Windows completely and solely use Linux (thanks to what seem to be really solid advances driven by Valve and others). Perhaps this means a little more grunt is asked of the system though for some games?

Machine 1: B550M-ITX/ac mobo with Ryzen 7 3700X, 16GB RAM and RTX 2060 SUPER. Housed in NXZT H1 with a 650W PSU.
Machine 2: i5-3570K, 8GB RAM and GTX 670 FTW. Housed in a Shuttle FZ77 (SZ77R5) with a 500W PSU.

Both systems have (SATA) SSD for OS and HDD for games.

Perhaps an M.2 SSD for Machine 2? Would I see a worthwhile difference if dropped ~£250 on a replacement GPU for this?

What are folks thoughts on Machine 1 - simply too old to upgrade to perform the use case described or is there life in the old dog yet?

TIA

 

[Gray2233]

Hi folks,

I'm looking to upgrade or replace two m-ITX PCs in a few months time (as the weather starts to turn bad) so right now I'm looking for high level advice to set budget requirements/expectations or perhaps to keep an eye out for 2nd hand parts for the older machine... if that's worthwhile!

Use-case: I'm looking to upgrade or build for gaming at 3440x1440 with settings on max. quality. I don't feel the need for FPS >60. Examples of games currently in Steam wishlist or regularly played: RDR/RDR2, Atomfall, HoI4, TW series, OMD3/4, KCD1/2. My intention, after dual booting for >10 years, is to finally ditch Windows completely and solely use Linux (thanks to what seem to be really solid advances driven by Valve and others). Perhaps this means a little more grunt is asked of the system though for some games?

Machine 1: B550M-ITX/ac mobo with Ryzen 7 3700X, 16GB RAM and RTX 2060 SUPER. Housed in NXZT H1 with a 650W PSU.
Machine 2: i5-3570K, 8GB RAM and GTX 670 FTW. Housed in a Shuttle FZ77 (SZ77R5) with a 500W PSU.

Both systems have (SATA) SSD for OS and HDD for games.

Perhaps an M.2 SSD for Machine 2? Would I see a worthwhile difference if dropped ~£250 on a replacement GPU for this?

What are folks thoughts on Machine 1 - simply too old to upgrade to perform the use case described or is there life in the old dog yet?

TIA

Honestly I'd not bother with the 3570K system at all.

Easiest thing you could do with the AM4 would be to grab a 5700X3D for around £180-200 and then upgrade the GPU to a minimum of a 9060XT 16GB, faster budget allowing but that would be the bare minimum I'd consider.

Probably worth upping the RAM to 32gb too.

Do you know the exact models of the PSU's? The wattage alone doesn't tell us much as quality between units can vary greatly, your overall budget would be helpful too.

 

[Jake_UK]

Do you know the exact models of the PSU's? The wattage alone doesn't tell us much as quality between units can vary greatly, your overall budget would be helpful too.

Thanks Gray.

The PSUs both came with the cases. Machine 1 is 650W 80 Plus Gold, Machine 2 is 500W 80 Plus - some more description on links but no brand name or anything like that.

Historically I'd probably spend something like £1-1.2k on a new build, e.g. to replace #1 (just the machine, no monitor/peripherals) and am essentially I'm wondering if it's worth spending a few hundred on upgrades to delay that for Machine 2 or whether it's better to start from scratch with both machines. A 5700X3D plus a 9060XT 16GB look like they'd be around £500-550.... consideration is best bang for buck more than actual number of bucks.

 

[Gray2233]

Thanks Gray.

The PSUs both came with the cases. Machine 1 is 650W 80 Plus Gold, Machine 2 is 500W 80 Plus - some more description on links but no brand name or anything like that.

Historically I'd probably spend something like £1-1.2k on a new build, e.g. to replace #1 (just the machine, no monitor/peripherals) and am essentially I'm wondering if it's worth spending a few hundred on upgrades to delay that for Machine 2 or whether it's better to start from scratch with both machines. A 5700X3D plus a 9060XT 16GB look like they'd be around £500-550.... consideration is best bang for buck more than actual number of bucks.

AM4 is still a strong platform and going with the 5700X3D would see serious uplift, it's difficult to manage that with an ITX build especially so upgrading to AM5 is off the table.

For 1.2K I'd do the following:

My basket at OcUK:

• 1 x AMD Ryzen 7 5700X3D Eight Core 4.1GHz (Socket AM4) Processor - Retail (SKU: PRO-AMD-01799) = £209.99
• 1 x Palit GeForce RTX 5070 Ti GamingPro-S 16GB GDDR7 PCI-Express Graphics Card (SKU: GRA-PAL-05412) = £679.99

Total: £897.97 (includes delivery: £7.99)​

It's not worth spending more as it would require you to do a total rebuild, the PSU you have is competent for a 5070ti, worst case scenario you'll need to undervolt it.

As mentioned earlier up to 32gb of RAM too.

Make sure the card will fit your case.

 

[Avalon]

Don’t forget to add an NVMe.

 

[bimbleuk]

System 1 well worth upgrading and the options above are great.

I was all for upgrading to a 4090/5090 and even had a case and PSU waiting. Then DLSS (FSR is also improving) got so good it just doesn't seem worth upgrading beyond my RTX 4080 except maybe get a 5xxx/6xxx series card that can do multi-frame insertion.

I'd rather spend £700-900 on a good OLED HDR monitor than £2K on a GPU and not get the best out of it.

 

[Jake_UK]

Thanks for the advice so far folks.

In looking at the card Gray found (looks like a good price with the discount on it right now) I noticed that the link to the H1 case is for the v2 whereas I have the v1. I found a review of the v1 here but also dug out the leaflet that came with it and:

• The 650W PSU is correct for my v1 (the v2 has 750W). Mine has model info NZXT NP-S650M.
• The max. GPU size is different for v1 and v2 though, with a max. length of 302mm for mine. Doing a quick search this shorter length restriction pushes the price for that 5070 Ti right up!

There seem to be a few more options for the 5060 Ti though... e.g. this one for £400 vs the 5070Ti for £680... is the performance change really as dramatic as that price drop?

 

[Craig_d1]

Amd 9070 16gb card for £500 prob a good option for 1440p gaming...uses 220w max power (5060ti 16gb is 180w but lower than 5070ti/9070xt 300/304w max power). relative perfomance is 41% faster than the 5060ti 16gb(linked relative performance of the 5060ti below, just scroll up to see the 9070)

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 5060 Ti 16 GB Specs

NVIDIA GB206, 2572 MHz, 4608 Cores, 144 TMUs, 48 ROPs, 16384 MB GDDR7, 1750 MHz, 128 bit

www.techpowerup.com

My basket at OcUK:

• 1 x PowerColor Radeon RX 9070 Reaper 16GB GDDR6 PCI-Express Graphics Card (SKU: GRA-PWC-04020) = £499.99

Total: £499.99 (includes delivery: £0.00)​

 

[Gray2233]

Amd 9070 16gb card for £500 prob a good option for 1440p gaming...uses 220w max power (5060ti 16gb is 180w but lower than 5070ti/9070xt 300/304w max power). relative perfomance is 41% faster than the 5060ti 16gb(linked relative performance of the 5060ti below, just scroll up to see the 9070)

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 5060 Ti 16 GB Specs

NVIDIA GB206, 2572 MHz, 4608 Cores, 144 TMUs, 48 ROPs, 16384 MB GDDR7, 1750 MHz, 128 bit

www.techpowerup.com

My basket at OcUK:

• 1 x PowerColor Radeon RX 9070 Reaper 16GB GDDR6 PCI-Express Graphics Card (SKU: GRA-PWC-04020) = £499.99

Total: £499.99 (includes delivery: £0.00)​

It's a little too large unfortunately.

Shame the 5070 Super isn't out yet as it'll almost certainly have twin fan models, along with more VRAM if the rumours are true.

My basket at OcUK:

• 1 x Acer Nitro Radeon RX 9070 OC 16GB GDDR6 PCI-Express Graphics Card (SKU: GRA-ACR-04816) = £548.99
• 1 x Acer Nitro Radeon RX 9070 XT OC 16GB GDDR6 PCI-Express Graphics Card (SKU: GRA-ACR-04815) = £619.99

Total: £1,176.97 (includes delivery: £7.99)​

These Acer models are 295mm in length, I don't know much about them though.

 

[Craig_d1]

It's a little too large unfortunately.

Shame the 5070 Super isn't out yet as it'll almost certainly have twin fan models, along with more VRAM if the rumours are true.

My basket at OcUK:

• 1 x Acer Nitro Radeon RX 9070 OC 16GB GDDR6 PCI-Express Graphics Card (SKU: GRA-ACR-04816) = £548.99
• 1 x Acer Nitro Radeon RX 9070 XT OC 16GB GDDR6 PCI-Express Graphics Card (SKU: GRA-ACR-04815) = £619.99

Total: £1,176.97 (includes delivery: £7.99)​

These Acer models are 295mm in length, I don't know much about them though.

yeah, didn't check length to be fair but then a £500 gpu cmpared to a £680 gpu(£5070ti), leaves a little room to change the case ..or actually, just get a shorter gpu even if slightly more expensive...cheaper
thought quick look at say card is 289 x 111 x 41 mm / 304 x 127 x 42 mm (w/bracket) (what's the with bracket? as without looks like it'll just go if max length is 302 allowable) though max legth for v1 case is 305mm from online look

 

[Thaifood]

What about the sapphire pulse 9070.. that's only 280mm..
I'm sure prices are different elsewhere so shop around

 

[Jake_UK]

Thanks again for all your inputs. I'm thinking I'll do a few things across multiple steps over the coming few months:

1) Next week/10 days upgrade Machine 1's GPU to a 5060 Ti (looks like best bang for the buck, lower power draw/heat than £500 9070s). The Asus GeForce RTX 5060 Ti Prime 16GB is £430 at oc.uk and looks like it'll just fit and with 3 fans will hopefully be quieter than the 2 fan stubby cards. I'll then put the existing 2060 Super into Machine 2 to replace the GTX 670. Also add a 2TB Samsung 990 PRO NVMe to Machine 2 (Mobo has a heatsink waiting for it).
2) See how that works out but plan to put a 5700X3D into Machine 2 in a month or two to complete that upgrade.
3) In the late autumn/early winter do a complete new build that will replace Machine 2. Already eyeing up the Louqe Raw S1 as the starting point for that

 

[jigger]

If you buy Zen 5000 I’d probably pick up A620 board and 32GB of cheap DDR4, then use 3700X and 16gb of RAM to upgrade the i5 system.

 

[Jake_UK]

2) See how that works out but plan to put a 5700X3D into Machine 2 in a month or two to complete that upgrade.

So, here I am a few months later thinking about the above and I am reconsidering a bit... given that the new GFX card I put in is PCIe 5 and my current mobo is gen 4 and my riser cable is even only gen 3, what are folks opinions on performance and bang for buck impact of:

a) Spending ~£300 to replace the riser cable to enable the current mobo's PCIe4 (~£55) and adding the 5700X3D as discussed above (~£240)
versus
b) Spending ~£600 on replacing riser cable (~£55), changing the mobo to an ASRock B650i Lightning (giving PCIe 5 and AM5 at ~£200) and putting an 7800X3D ~£350 in there.

Is twice the spend justifiable for (AIUI ~20% CPU speed increase plus going to PCIe 5)... my wallet is telling me Option A is better and my gut is saying I might not see much real world experience difference.

Is even the £300 option going to make that much difference to my day to day experience (I finally ended up with a 9060XT as the GFX upgrade due to Nvidia's shocking Linux drivers for the 5060Ti I originally bought)?

FYI, this kind of cost/performance tradeoff is also likely to be relevant to the replacement for the other, older machine (seems likely I'd use the same mobo/CPU/gfx combination).

Thoughts?

TIA

 

[Tetras]

Is even the £300 option going to make that much difference to my day to day experience (I finally ended up with a 9060XT as the GFX upgrade due to Nvidia's shocking Linux drivers for the 5060Ti I originally bought)?

You have a 3700X, is that right? With a 9060 XT 16GB, PCI-E 3.0 is not a problem. Not worth the £55 to upgrade the riser.

The CPU: that's going to depend on the game. Most games will have no problem, especially if your resolution is 3440 x 1440.

You only have 16GB of RAM though? The AM4 X3D CPUs (5700X3D/5800X3D) have got pretty expensive and availability is extremely poor, so add that problem to the high cost of DDR4 (at least, new) and overall it is much harder to justify versus switching to AM5. This was not the situation awhile ago.

Is twice the spend justifiable for (AIUI ~20% CPU speed increase plus going to PCIe 5)... my wallet is telling me Option A is better and my gut is saying I might not see much real world experience difference.

My opinion is that for a casual gamer with a 9060 XT, a £350 CPU is not worth it and unfortunately ITX adds further cost on top, alongside the new DDR5 memory.

You can get ITX boards for more like ~£100, alongside a lower-end CPU, e.g. 7500F/7600/9600, which is more cost competitive (aside from the DDR5) versus AM5.

Are you not happy with the performance you have now?

 

[Jake_UK]

Thanks Tetras - no, it's a typo in my OP, this machine is running 32GB of system RAM not 16GB.

My reasoning for the upgrade is two-fold, but as per my posts I'm not fully convinced I'm going to get vale for money/bang for buck. The two thinks making me think about the upgrade is that I'm going to replace the older PC completely and so having the retained machine plus the new build at pretty much the same level would be nice and that I wonder whether the CPU and/or PCIe bus has become a bottleneck.

General feeling is that upgrades are generally more hassle and cost than they're worth and it's better to hold out a little longer with an existing machine and then do a complete new build to get best value for money and optimum compatibility between components (as all the same 'generation'). It's only really because I'm now running two gaming-spec machines in the house that I'm giving serious though to an upgrade as, to answer your question, I'm not unhappy with the rig's performance today.

However, another way to look at it perhaps is that it's better to stagger/separate the new builds (cost of, particularly) rather than actively try and align them (even if that might feel better from e.g. a co-op gaming perspective).

 

[DD_Crash]

Wait 4 weeks and look for black friday deals.

 

[Tetras]

and that I wonder whether the CPU and/or PCIe bus has become a bottleneck.

You can definitely get more out of the 9060 XT with a CPU upgrade, but the CPU/PCIE bottleneck is not something I'd be concerned about, especially if the resolution is 3440 x 1440.

General feeling is that upgrades are generally more hassle and cost than they're worth and it's better to hold out a little longer with an existing machine and then do a complete new build to get best value for money and optimum compatibility between components (as all the same 'generation'). It's only really because I'm now running two gaming-spec machines in the house that I'm giving serious though to an upgrade as, to answer your question, I'm not unhappy with the rig's performance today.

That's generally true once a PC reaches a certain age the upgrade aren't worth it, but AM4 is a unique beast due to the long support for the socket from AMD. The gulf in performance between say... a 1800X and a 5700X3D is enormous.

It is only recently that the 5700X3D option has got unappealing (it is still competitive with most non-X3D AM5 CPUs and one of the top gaming CPUs), due to the high price of DDR4 and the lack of availability on the 5700X3D/5800X3D.

In your case, if you were to retire the i5-3570K and retain the Ryzen 3700X "as is", I'd want to buy into AM5 for the 'new' one. That's because it would get you on a newer platform, with a long-term upgrade path.

In terms of: would upgrading the 3700X to a 5700X3D or 7800X3D offer justifiable improvement for £300 or £600 respectively, with a 9060 XT 16GB: then no is my answer to that, especially since you said 60 fps at the highest details is your goal.

If you were e.g. a competitive/esports gamer that wanted the max FPS/FPS consistency then it would be a different answer.

That said, a 7800X3D would offer you at least one, probably two GPU upgrades on the 9060 XT before the CPU needs replacing, so if it were me, I'd weigh whatever limited benefits you get from it now, alongside the upgrade path.