Was WoW the ultimate MMO?
- Thread starter Teki187
- Start date
WoW??
Nope..not by a long stretch.
sorry, but as some others have already said here, the ultimate MMO was UO. Particularly between 1997 and 2001. UO simply was the greatest MMO, with the greatest level of freedom, and did things in 1997 that newer MMOs have only dreamed about.
UO at its prime, simply slaughters every other MMO at its prime. In a way its a shame that so many people werent around at the time of UO, otherwise they could have seen how an MMO should really be done
Nope..not by a long stretch.
sorry, but as some others have already said here, the ultimate MMO was UO. Particularly between 1997 and 2001. UO simply was the greatest MMO, with the greatest level of freedom, and did things in 1997 that newer MMOs have only dreamed about.
UO at its prime, simply slaughters every other MMO at its prime. In a way its a shame that so many people werent around at the time of UO, otherwise they could have seen how an MMO should really be done
I was an EQ1 player, but from the sounds of UO, I'd have loved the freedom that game boasted.
MMO's today pretend to be sandboxes, and they do fool a lot of newcomers to the genre into thinking they are, but they're nothing like a sandbox. They're as locked down as any single player game. Unattackable guards, quest hubs that channel/feed players from one area to another, quest logs that look like shopping lists. The devs don't give you many ways of being inventive, or thinking outside the box. You're SHOWN the game, you're not given much opportunity to DISCOVER it.
MMO's today are a shadow of what they once were, and it's a shame many people will never see that.
MMO's today pretend to be sandboxes, and they do fool a lot of newcomers to the genre into thinking they are, but they're nothing like a sandbox. They're as locked down as any single player game. Unattackable guards, quest hubs that channel/feed players from one area to another, quest logs that look like shopping lists. The devs don't give you many ways of being inventive, or thinking outside the box. You're SHOWN the game, you're not given much opportunity to DISCOVER it.
MMO's today are a shadow of what they once were, and it's a shame many people will never see that.
You can still pick up cheap copies of Ultima and there are so many free servers around. Trick is to find a really 'early' one, I find the newer versions of the game are too easy and magical for my liking.
And that says it all folks
Dumbed down for the masses and subscriptions. Todays MMO's are a vastly different ball game to the older ones that were free from any restrictions.
In UO when I started out as a newbie, there were certain areas I FEARED going to because I knew I'd be PK'd and all my precious nooblet items looted. When I saw my first PK, I ran and ran fearing for my life...and then I ran into a house for protection. Sadly it was his guild house. In todays UO PK's are more or less gone, your belongings can be insured so they stay with your corpse when you die. The game was dumbed down - but the core skills/freedom remains, albiet in a vastly different world to what it once was.
Last edited:
Absolutely true, was a great year or so that i played it, fantastic game and a damn shame they had to ruin it.
Associate
- Joined
- 21 Apr 2006
- Posts
- 1,476
If WoW was released today, i'd try it (I generally try any new MMORPG in the hope it'll add something new to the genre), but I wouldn't class it as the ultimate MMORPG to date.
I'd call it an MMO over an MMORPG. For me personally, WoW is too watered down. It's mechanics and gameplay reek of being lowest common denominator stuff. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, it's the reason why it's so popular.
Freedom to roam As before, this is common to all MMO's, but freedom to roam was pointless in WoW - you simply followed the trail of quest givers from zone to zone. There was little point of roaming, unlike other MMORPGs.
Polish are we talking about polish at release? Or polish of 3 years of constant development and bug correction?
Huge open land As with the roaming section, the land serves a function of giving quests at set level limits. Each zone is catered to this. So it's hard to see the land as huge or open.
Easy to learn combat Agree with this, but even at high level it is still 'easy to learn combat'. No skill progression, or room for people with skill to flourish. Gear determined near everything.
Massive amounts of customization Good to an extent, but it was taken too far with the raw power of scripting availible, creating even easier and skill-less combat.
Good PvP Easy, skillless combat, which was determined by gear does not make good PvP. I remember pre-TBC when the BGs were full of people after the PvP sets. The PvE raiding guilds destroyed everyone, not through skillfull play, but through sheer damage output and damage mitigation embued by their tier-3 sets.
I'd call it an MMO over an MMORPG. For me personally, WoW is too watered down. It's mechanics and gameplay reek of being lowest common denominator stuff. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, it's the reason why it's so popular.
Freedom to roam As before, this is common to all MMO's, but freedom to roam was pointless in WoW - you simply followed the trail of quest givers from zone to zone. There was little point of roaming, unlike other MMORPGs.
Polish are we talking about polish at release? Or polish of 3 years of constant development and bug correction?
Huge open land As with the roaming section, the land serves a function of giving quests at set level limits. Each zone is catered to this. So it's hard to see the land as huge or open.
Easy to learn combat Agree with this, but even at high level it is still 'easy to learn combat'. No skill progression, or room for people with skill to flourish. Gear determined near everything.
Massive amounts of customization Good to an extent, but it was taken too far with the raw power of scripting availible, creating even easier and skill-less combat.
Good PvP Easy, skillless combat, which was determined by gear does not make good PvP. I remember pre-TBC when the BGs were full of people after the PvP sets. The PvE raiding guilds destroyed everyone, not through skillfull play, but through sheer damage output and damage mitigation embued by their tier-3 sets.
Associate
- Joined
- 28 Jan 2008
- Posts
- 1,249
Yes i would try it, simply because of the rave reviews form both critics and users.
It also attempts to be less 'hardcore' and more casual (obviously now we know that has all changed with TBC etc)
End game was always going to be a let-down anyway, but hey you'd probably taken 100 fun fill hours play time till that point (roughly same length as a decent rpg) so you'd have your moneys worth.
It also attempts to be less 'hardcore' and more casual (obviously now we know that has all changed with TBC etc)
End game was always going to be a let-down anyway, but hey you'd probably taken 100 fun fill hours play time till that point (roughly same length as a decent rpg) so you'd have your moneys worth.
All MMO's -- ALL of them -- can be placed into one of two categories. And it's got nothing to do with pvp, orcs, space pirates or jedi.
* A game that was built as a world
This category fits all MMO's that have been built as a world first, and a place for people to play in second. This world doesn't care that you're there, it doesn't care if you live or die, doesn't care if you make it or don't. It wasn't built to entertain you, it was built as a living breathing dangerous world. For the most part you make your own entertainment and server communities play a huuuuge role in this. Pvp games like UO in particular heavily revolve around the politics on their shard (server) and the way the guilds on that shard behave. They create their own stories. The penalties for being pk'ed or raid wiped in these MMO's are typically harsh by todays standards -- BUT the rewards for succeeding or accomplishing goals make the victory very sweet indeed, simply becaused it was well earned.
Good examples of MMO's built as worlds are: UO, EVE, and to a lesser extent, EverQuest and DAoC.
* A game that was built as a theme park
MMO's that were designed like this are all about showing the player the 'rides'. They're accessible and fun, progression is fast and there's little to no penalties for dying. The developers want you to see and experience everything in this game by leading you around by the hand. Communities are there, but you generally don't need anyone for anything -- all the mystery and information is all explained in your UI. Your journey is dictated by a Quest Log -- follow the instructions in your log and it will lead you around the rides. You don't have to plan anything or decipher quest clues, it's all taken care of.
Good examples of games built as theme parks are: WoW, EverQuest 2, LOTRO, and to a lesser extent, Vanguard.
You can even look at every reply in this thread, and spot which players would fit into which world. You can see who prefers the one style over the other.
* A game that was built as a world
This category fits all MMO's that have been built as a world first, and a place for people to play in second. This world doesn't care that you're there, it doesn't care if you live or die, doesn't care if you make it or don't. It wasn't built to entertain you, it was built as a living breathing dangerous world. For the most part you make your own entertainment and server communities play a huuuuge role in this. Pvp games like UO in particular heavily revolve around the politics on their shard (server) and the way the guilds on that shard behave. They create their own stories. The penalties for being pk'ed or raid wiped in these MMO's are typically harsh by todays standards -- BUT the rewards for succeeding or accomplishing goals make the victory very sweet indeed, simply becaused it was well earned.
Good examples of MMO's built as worlds are: UO, EVE, and to a lesser extent, EverQuest and DAoC.
* A game that was built as a theme park
MMO's that were designed like this are all about showing the player the 'rides'. They're accessible and fun, progression is fast and there's little to no penalties for dying. The developers want you to see and experience everything in this game by leading you around by the hand. Communities are there, but you generally don't need anyone for anything -- all the mystery and information is all explained in your UI. Your journey is dictated by a Quest Log -- follow the instructions in your log and it will lead you around the rides. You don't have to plan anything or decipher quest clues, it's all taken care of.
Good examples of games built as theme parks are: WoW, EverQuest 2, LOTRO, and to a lesser extent, Vanguard.
You can even look at every reply in this thread, and spot which players would fit into which world. You can see who prefers the one style over the other.
There will be so many people who hate wow, but I for one thinks it's one of the best games that has ever been made. PC elitists/MMO elitists will no doubt point out many flaws, but WOW is great.
Why don't I play anymore.... because of personal flaws, because I let myself get addicted too much, not bad game design.
Why don't I play anymore.... because of personal flaws, because I let myself get addicted too much, not bad game design.
For me it has to be Asherons Call.
One of the very first MMORPG's when MMO's were a really unknown thing. Paying to play was very new then and not many people wanted to know.
The thing for me that I loved about the game was that everyone was individualistic. By that I mean you put XP into stats. You could up your run, strength, war magic, sword, etc. and this would make a difference. Your template could be a mixture of anything you want although your starting stats would mean you would not be as good as a 'pure' class.
The community, at the time, was brilliant and I've made some friends on there and still I am in touch with them almost 10 years after the time it was released (1999).
I've played WoW, LOTRO and many others and none offer the freedom that Asherons Call does. WoW, etc. lead you by the hand the PvP is rubbish really. With AC you can dodge arrows / spells you really have to put time into it.
What went wrong with AC was firstly housing. This killed off the community as there were loads of people in town selling stuff. The only reason people now go into town is to sell rubbish and get spell components. The second thing, although brilliant at the time, was a program called Decal. This allowed a whole host of third party applications to be ran in game and made Macroing very easy which meant no-one was there anymore so again a further stab in the heart of the community.
Still, everything considered, I think that this, for me, is the pinacle of MMO's. Sadly everything has gone really simplified and, for some reason, the developers think that we have no brains that we need to gain a level then be given the same equipment, attributes, new traits, etc. as everyone else.
I don't have much hope for MMO's returning to this way as WoW has set the precedent for this. Anyway here's hoping that one developer will be brave enough to break the mold and do something different than the current crop we have.
M.
One of the very first MMORPG's when MMO's were a really unknown thing. Paying to play was very new then and not many people wanted to know.
The thing for me that I loved about the game was that everyone was individualistic. By that I mean you put XP into stats. You could up your run, strength, war magic, sword, etc. and this would make a difference. Your template could be a mixture of anything you want although your starting stats would mean you would not be as good as a 'pure' class.
The community, at the time, was brilliant and I've made some friends on there and still I am in touch with them almost 10 years after the time it was released (1999).
I've played WoW, LOTRO and many others and none offer the freedom that Asherons Call does. WoW, etc. lead you by the hand the PvP is rubbish really. With AC you can dodge arrows / spells you really have to put time into it.
What went wrong with AC was firstly housing. This killed off the community as there were loads of people in town selling stuff. The only reason people now go into town is to sell rubbish and get spell components. The second thing, although brilliant at the time, was a program called Decal. This allowed a whole host of third party applications to be ran in game and made Macroing very easy which meant no-one was there anymore so again a further stab in the heart of the community.
Still, everything considered, I think that this, for me, is the pinacle of MMO's. Sadly everything has gone really simplified and, for some reason, the developers think that we have no brains that we need to gain a level then be given the same equipment, attributes, new traits, etc. as everyone else.
I don't have much hope for MMO's returning to this way as WoW has set the precedent for this. Anyway here's hoping that one developer will be brave enough to break the mold and do something different than the current crop we have.
M.
Having played just about every MMO of the past 10 years, I'll state right now that the best was Ultima Online. There isn't even a debate about this. Every single MMO since has copied many, many elements and most have still failed to even do that as well as UO did.
Dark Age of Camelot for me is the modern day MMO that got closest, but failed due to a very poor development strategy and the reliance on paid for expansions which were barely optional. My hope is that MMOs learn from Eve Online regardning expansions - have a slightly higher monthly subs rather than expecting people to fork out every year for another expansion pack, this inhibits the recruitment of new players.
Back to the main point - Ultima Online, Pre-publish 16(trammel/felucia split) was the best PvP, best PvE, best exploring, skills, crafting, development and genuine reality of any MMO to date. In UO you felt you were always at risk of attack and unlike many games you were at risk of losing EVERYTHING you had on you. Pickpocketing, scams and many of the other elements of UO have been dumbed down or even removed in later MMOs, but to me they were part of the gaming world and simply made it more realistic and immersive.
Crafting in UO was time consuming, but getting a Grand Master felt like a real achievement, in the early years people showed off their new swords as a badge of honour and proclaimed loudly who made it, that crafter got more business as it was trendy to own his equipment!
UO exploring has never been equaled.
Customisation of both your skills and appearance has never been even rivaled. No classes, dozens of skills to pick from, make your own class.
Customisation of your home, which is IN THE GAMING WORLD NEXT TO MOBS has never, ever been touched. Yes it made some areas laggy and they did go way over the top in housing terms in later years but it was outstanding that you could actually have your house in an area you picked, on the gaming map. You had to rely on people passing your door to sell your goods! I remember having a house in Vesper forest that had people come over to visit, usually 3-4 people there practicing combat skills, chatting or looking for a passer by to murder.
One thing that I really liked about UO was the fact that there was no spam (expect near Brit bank), comms channels were all local - you had to use your eyes, had to read the text near people - I loved that and still prefer it to the scrolling IRC style chat windows we have in every MMO now, it's just lazy.
To sum up, thread over, the winner is - Ultima Online.
Dark Age of Camelot for me is the modern day MMO that got closest, but failed due to a very poor development strategy and the reliance on paid for expansions which were barely optional. My hope is that MMOs learn from Eve Online regardning expansions - have a slightly higher monthly subs rather than expecting people to fork out every year for another expansion pack, this inhibits the recruitment of new players.
Back to the main point - Ultima Online, Pre-publish 16(trammel/felucia split) was the best PvP, best PvE, best exploring, skills, crafting, development and genuine reality of any MMO to date. In UO you felt you were always at risk of attack and unlike many games you were at risk of losing EVERYTHING you had on you. Pickpocketing, scams and many of the other elements of UO have been dumbed down or even removed in later MMOs, but to me they were part of the gaming world and simply made it more realistic and immersive.
Crafting in UO was time consuming, but getting a Grand Master felt like a real achievement, in the early years people showed off their new swords as a badge of honour and proclaimed loudly who made it, that crafter got more business as it was trendy to own his equipment!
UO exploring has never been equaled.
Customisation of both your skills and appearance has never been even rivaled. No classes, dozens of skills to pick from, make your own class.
Customisation of your home, which is IN THE GAMING WORLD NEXT TO MOBS has never, ever been touched. Yes it made some areas laggy and they did go way over the top in housing terms in later years but it was outstanding that you could actually have your house in an area you picked, on the gaming map. You had to rely on people passing your door to sell your goods! I remember having a house in Vesper forest that had people come over to visit, usually 3-4 people there practicing combat skills, chatting or looking for a passer by to murder.
One thing that I really liked about UO was the fact that there was no spam (expect near Brit bank), comms channels were all local - you had to use your eyes, had to read the text near people - I loved that and still prefer it to the scrolling IRC style chat windows we have in every MMO now, it's just lazy.
To sum up, thread over, the winner is - Ultima Online.
Last edited:
Same here, it showed me what a sandbox MMO could be like, sure it had it's faults but it felt that only your imagination was the limiting factor.
SWG was the greatest imo. Totally immersive, unique, huge terrains to navigate, if you think a zone in WoW is big you aint seen nothing! Player housing, super extreme crafting system (majorly immersive) PVP was the best. Base raiding was probably the most exciting thing I've ever done on a game, also we once had a huge PVP event in the temple on Yavin, one of the most mental things I have ever seen, CSR's in SWG were awesome. Also who remembers the DWB? 
I knew that place like the back of my hand, our team on corbantis made the first full suit of mandalorian, I went through scythes like they were paper in that place. All of its ruined now though but I like to reminisce. (woah SWG makes me rant)
I've played WoW to death, LOTR, City of Heroes/Villains, EVE Etc.. Nothing even comes close to SWG.
I knew that place like the back of my hand, our team on corbantis made the first full suit of mandalorian, I went through scythes like they were paper in that place. All of its ruined now though but I like to reminisce. (woah SWG makes me rant)I've played WoW to death, LOTR, City of Heroes/Villains, EVE Etc.. Nothing even comes close to SWG.
No because it uses instances.
WoW is no where near the ultimate MMO. The ultimate MMO will have TRUE free roam, everyone playing on the same server cluster regardless of geographic location. Have proper weather cycles, night and day. Plants/trees/hair/nails will "grow"...
So in short, no WoW is a watered down version of what a real MMO should be. Its popular because its easy and plays well on low spec computers. And props to Blizzard very very polished and released with relatively few bugs (possibly the least buggy MMO release to date).
Edit: Since everyone else i naming names I will as well.
Ultima Online - Accept no imitations.
WoW is no where near the ultimate MMO. The ultimate MMO will have TRUE free roam, everyone playing on the same server cluster regardless of geographic location. Have proper weather cycles, night and day. Plants/trees/hair/nails will "grow"...
So in short, no WoW is a watered down version of what a real MMO should be. Its popular because its easy and plays well on low spec computers. And props to Blizzard very very polished and released with relatively few bugs (possibly the least buggy MMO release to date).
Edit: Since everyone else i naming names I will as well.
Ultima Online - Accept no imitations.
Last edited:
Oh my god, i didn't ask for comparisons, i just asked for your personal feelings
Is that too hard to ask for?
Your question is flawed. Strip all feelings back, forget personal experiences, then give me your personal feelings?
No that isn't hard to ask for, however it is impossible to answer.
Was WoW the ultimate MMO? No but I can't tell you my thoughts on why because I would have to talk about a different MMO thus forming a comparison.
No, that would be dumb and anyway how would I know it was out?
Tell me, why do you ask anyway?
Your question refers to it in the past tense, do you consider it to be dead or simply surpassed?
Last edited: