Water Cooling?

[RoEy]

Hi all,

this is my first time on the forums but I've been a customer at Overclockers for the last 3 years. Pleased to meet you all!

Ok, I want to build a new system in a few months time and I'm looking to spend roughly £2300. I've been researching and planning for the last 2 months and when the Nvidia 9800's series cards and Penryn CPU's are out I'll then build it. I want to plan it all to the very last details so I'll be 100% happy with my build.

Ok this is where the ambiguity kicks in... I'm really thinking about water cooling but I'm put off by the thought of it ever leaking. I like to leave my PC on overnight constantly downloading but the shear thought of it potentially leaking while I'm asleep terrifies me. I know that water cooling has come on in leaps and bounds but the threat of leakage still exists, although now greatly reduced.

Eventually I want to get into over clocking too, hence the reason I'm thinking about water cooling but the idea of my parts running at stock level for now under water cooling is also very appealing. Of course, there’s the decibel advantage too, which again makes me think I want to take the jump.

So what I need to find out is the following:

1) What method of water cooling is the best, BUILT IN / INTERNAL / EXTERNAL? I've looked at the Zalman Reserator XT Hybrid Liquid Cooling System but is custom better?

2) What cases are good for water cooling that have windowed side so obviously you get to see all the glory? I'm looking at the new Thermaltake Armour + VH600BWS but the review wasn’t great.

3) If I decided on air cooling for now, what's a good case so you will have good potential to use water-cooling down the line?

I'd really appreciate any help you guys can offer.

Thanks,

RoEy

 

[MikeTimbers]

All my home computers are water-cooled and I don't even think of them leaking. Do you worry about the pipes in your walls leaking? You know, the ones with incredibly high-pressure water going through them right next to mains power cables? No, I didn't think so.

PC Water-cooling is no different except that the water-pressure is much lower and the electricity is much less dangerous.

Take a look through the Advanced Guide Sticky, follow the link to the gallery and see what others have done and re-assure yourself that this is a route you are mentally prepared to take.

Few people are going to recommend a Zalman system if you are running high-power components and want to overclock. The radiators simply can't dela with the kind of heat produced. Personally I like INTERNAL systems but DIY External can be incredibly efficient. I would avoid BUILT-IN like the plague because that almost certainly means Thermaltake :shudder:

The question around cases is so personal as to be impossible to answer. Again, the gallery is your friend as it will allow you to see what others have done.

 

[RoEy]

Thanks for the advice. I really want to go down this route but like you said, can I mentally prepare myself before hand? It's not that all my emphasis is placed on worrying about them leaking, it's what damage it does when it leaks that scares me. As for your comment regarding water pipes in the walls, that is something that has to be there and is an every day occurrence but I don't have to have water cooling.

I'd feel better if there was a way it would shut your PC down if it leaked or it alarmed you etc. But as you say check out all the stuff in the sticky, which I'll do now. So I take it your water cooling systems are really reliable and are they custom built? I read somewhere that you can get condensation on the pipes sometime does this still tend to happen? Sorry for all the question but we've all got to start somewhere, just trying to find out as much as I can oppose to diving right in and regretting it.

Again thanks for the advice Mike...

RoEy

 

[uv]

I'd feel better if there was a way it would shut your PC down if it leaked or it alarmed you etc.

Oh, it'll alarm you

Doing my first water setup tonight, good luck with yours
After all the umming and aarhing, I've realised that the only thing to fear is fear itself, so to speak.. just do it!

 

[RoEy]

LOL uvmain!

So does it alarm you? Glad you've taken the plunge, what are you using then? Custom, if so what are all the bits you got so it gives me an idea. Good luck with it all mate.

RoEy

 

[uv]

Thermaltake Bigwater SE CPU block and Rad, DangerDen Fillport and Res, Eheim 1408 pump and some red feser1/red tubing.

Not the most advanced setup in the world, but It came to a total of ~£40 inc delivery - I bought half of it from a popular auction site

Also got some wet/dry sandpaper from Halfords (they're not a competitor, right?) and lapped the cpu block, as it was filthy and not too even.

 

[Tooks]

You will never get condensation on watercooling pipes, because the water can never be below ambient temperature, so don't worry about that.

As somebody who once asked all the questions and had all the worries you do, I went with a watercooling kit that just had a 120mm rad, a fan, a cpu block, and a combined pump/reservoir. This was my introduction, and gave me the confidence to move on.

Custom built from parts to suit you is the way to go though. You'll end up with a very capable system a bit cheaper and higher performing than most of the kits out there if you do just a little homework.

Some of the kits are good though, but I only have experience of the XSPC stuff, which I rate very highly, and is good value.

Nowadays, I run what everybody else seems to run which is Apogee or D-Tek CPU blocks, Thermochill Rads (although I'm using Black Ice GT stuff at the moment for space reasons), Laing pumps, 1/2 tubing (more for aesthetics than actual performance!) and Yate Loon fans.

I've built and rebuilt watercooling loops dozens of times now, and I've never had a leak! Fingers crossed it stays like that, but as long as you take a bit of care putting everything together, there is no reason for it to leak.

Draining the loop to add components or change the water is where I tend to soak the place!!

 

[RoEy]

Tooks,

Thanks a lot for your advice, really appreciate it. I could get a kit but I'm thinking like you said to do it custom. I'll just make sure I know it inside out before I do.

Can you test a water cooling setup for leaks without attaching it to the CPU, chipset, GPU first? So put all the tubing on the blocks and then leave it out your case, hotwire the psu and leave for a good while?

Thanks,

RoEy

P.S. Yeah the 1/2" tubing looks awesome. Just need to find a top looking case with a big window.

 

[Tooks]

Yep, you can, and indeed probably should!

It's only really worth doing it that way if you can then install it in your PC without having to break it down again, as when you reconnect everything you might have a leak!

What I do is install everything in situ, then just jump the PSU so that the pump and fans etc start up, and then you can check for leaks without any power going to the motherboard. If it does leak, just make sure you dry everything out thoroughly before powering up again, and it should be fine.

You could always just find a case you like and make the side panel window yourself?

 

[RoEy]

Yeah I thought about doing that but never modded a case before so don't know if I'd like to take the risk if I'd spent around £150 on it. A couple of other things, do you have to drill your case to store radiator, pump etc? I've seen radiators on the backs of cases but are these modded? I know you can now get reservoirs that fit in drives now, which look quite good.

I've seen some people have little LCD displays in their PC's that give them the temps of everything, how do these work because I'd definitely want one of them?

Thanks,

RoEy

 

[Tooks]

Well, that depends on the case and the rads and/or pump really. You can get mounting kits that will suspend radiators off the back of the case using the fan screw holes, but most likely you might need to cut or drill somewhere to get the configuration you want or need. You may have to do this even with some of the kits.

I like all my stuff to be internal, so i've had to make some modifications to my P182 to mount a radiator in the roof, but that's about it. It will really depend on what case you get and what you want to cool and how.

The temp displays can be as simple as bay mounted and using their own temp probes, or ones that use software to 'tap into' the temps already reported by the motherboard/GPU/CPU etc.

 

[Brizzles]

I've seen radiators on the backs of cases but are these modded?

RoEy

No.

If your chosen case has the 120mm holes already in place for an exhaust fan ( most do ) then you can either use the carcas/housing from an old 120mm fan to attach the radiator to the case , or a Swiftech Radbox ( Google for it ).

Its very easy to fit.

You may need to make holes for the tubing to enter the case ( again some cases have these pre-cut ) or you can thread then through the PCI brackets ( you might need to cut one away ).

As for leaks , i started with an Asetek kit ( for practice ) and quickly moved on to various custom builds - Never had a leak.

As long as you leak test for 24 hours before turning it on , then you will be fine.

Personally , i fit it all in the case , loosely tighten the blocks in place , then hotwire the PSU and let it run. This way there is no movement between when you leak test out of the case and when you fit it.

Good Luck.

Mark

 

[RoEy]

Thanks for your advice Mark.

It seems like I'll go for it once I know enough. A couple of other things I was querying were:

1) If I was on Holiday and left the system for 2 weeks let's say, then is this perfectly ok?

2) I know someone said that condensation won't occur due to temp of water being ambient but would it still be ok if the room was cold, I put the heating on and the PC, so going from really cold to quickly warm.

3) When I leak test and hopefully It'll be fine, when I want to install Windows how can I make sure my temps are ok or should I pre-install windows that why I can quickly check my temps?

I'm starting to sound a bit daft now but I just want to take literally every precaution. I don't want to spend over £2000 and the bodge it up.

Thanks,

RoEy

 

[Brizzles]

T

1) If I was on Holiday and left the system for 2 weeks let's say, then is this perfectly ok?

2) I know someone said that condensation won't occur due to temp of water being ambient but would it still be ok if the room was cold, I put the heating on and the PC, so going from really cold to quickly warm.

3) When I leak test and hopefully It'll be fine, when I want to install Windows how can I make sure my temps are ok or should I pre-install windows that why I can quickly check my temps?

1) No problem , as long as its been properly leak tested before hand . I've left mine for 2 weeks before.
I pressume you mean switched off ! - I would never leave my PC running for 2 weeks whilst i was away.

2) Condensation on normal watercooling is impossible - You would never get the water/fluid cold enough for this to occur.

3) I would make sure Windows is installed before hand to check the temps immediately - You may of not seated a cooling block exactly right ( It happens ).

I don't blame you for asking as many questions as you can think of , if i was spending £2000 on a rig i would be doing exactly the same.

Ask away , we're all here to help.

Mark

 

[RoEy]

Thanks for your help Mark, really helpful. Would it be better to start off with a kit system or just go custom seeing as it's my first time which such an expensive system? It's the leak testing that will be frustrating too because when I get my parts I'll just want to get it working as quick as I can instead of having to mess around testing stuff, but I suppose its the price you have to pay for your system being a lot cooler. My father in-law has opted to get a CoolerMaster stacker 832 and bang 9 fans in it instead not sure if I should take that route instead then there’s no worrying involved. Has anyone gone straight into custom water cooling for this first, on an expensive system?

I'll be back with more questions...

Cheers,

RoEy

P.S. I love logic zero's setup, simply awesome... http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17185358&page=32

 

[RoEy]

Just think I've found the stuff that may help me sleep at night!

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=WC-020-DD

Looks awesome, and like the guy said in his review, if you've spent a fortune on your PC then £30 for this stuff is chips

Really building the confidence to go a head and do it. At the moment I've got the pricing around £250. But that will be more If I decide to add GPU blocks too.

I wonder if this stuff is UV reacting? I want a nice blue theme with 1/2" tubing.

Are these any good:

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=CA-002-AC&groupid=701&catid=193&subcat=1044


RoEy

 

[Crashgate3]

RoEy, I think I'm in pretty much exactly the same situation as you so I hope you don't mind me hijacking your thread a bit as I imagine we'll both benefit from any extra questions that get answered.

I've had my second self-built PC for a few years now, and want to add watercooling to the new rig I'll be building in the spring - like you I'm also waiting for the new smaller-process chips and the new 9800 series nVidia cards.

My decision to try watercooling is about 25% noise, 25% extra cooling so I can have a bit more of a play with overclocks and 50% just the challenge of doing something a bit different.

This thread and others have been really useful for me - I was originally going to just get a Reserator XT kit, but am now going to get everything seperately and want it all internal too.

So over to the experts - a couple of things that I've not been able to find out, mainly about radiators. Firstly, what size radiator is neccesary to cool different setups? I've seen you can get 1, 2 and 3 fan versions of most radiators. I'm intending to watercool a quad-core Penryn, the northbridge and two GPUs, so I'm certain a 120.1 rad won't be enough, but will a 120.2? The 120.3 rad looks way too big to fit into a case without cutting holes in the sides.

The case I'm intending to use is a Thermaltake Armour, as it looks like I could have a 120.2 radiator mounted vertically in the bottom front, sucking cool air in from outside. Will the fact that there's a stonking great radiator in front of the only inlet fans cause too much heat for the other non-watercooled components, like RAM?

Finally, can you daisy-chain rads together, so if the 120.2 wasn't enough, could I add a 120.1 rad to the loop using the 120mm exhaust fan mount on the back of the case, or will the fact that it's trying to cool the water using warmer air from inside the case become a problem? And if I can do this, can it be added anywhere in the loop or would the rads have to both be first in the series?

 

[RoEy]

Hi Crashgate,

Yes you can use more than one radiator, well so I've read anyway. As for your choice of case, I'd stay away from the Thermaltake Armour cases. I've read a review regarding one of the latest ones, Thermaltake Armour VH600BWS and it didn’t get great marks. I think most people on here will agree with me regarding Thermaltake cases.

A great case I've seen with good water-cooling accommodation is the Silverstone TJ07(Can't find one though - with window panel). If you were to get this case you could house the radiator in the bottom compartment, which means you'd have enough room for the Thermochill PA120.3 120mm Triple Radiator - http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=WC-002-TO&groupid=701&catid=193&subcat=1041
From what I've read about it, it's a fantastic radiator especially when you use Yate Loon fans.

I too am intending to keep it all internal as I think it looks a lot better. The more and more I read about water cooling the less worried I become. I want it mainly so I'll have a silent system and a lot cooler. Then I'll gradually look into overclocking. I can't believe how much I've learnt about water cooling over the last week. I suggest you write down everything you research and plan it on paper that way it will make it much easier when you come to buying and installing. Looks like it'll be atleast 2 more months before the Penryn and 9800's are out so by then I'll be an expert on water cooling before I actually fit one! Time is on our side...

Feel free to email me and we can have a chat about it: [email protected]

Good luck mate,

RoEy

 

[Crashgate3]

What kind of things did they say were bad about the Armour case? My brother has one, and the only thing I found bad about it when we were putting his PC together was that we needed to take out the bottom HD cradle to fit his graphics card in.

I do like that Silverstone case you posted although I also haven't been able to find one with a window. I'd definitely want a window if I'm using watercooling. I suppose I could cut one myself, but I'd have to buy all the tools and also I'm really no expert on metalworking. Maybe in the next two months, the perfect case for me will be released

And the experts here - can anyone answer my question about the radiator size above please?

 

[fornowagain]

Firstly, what size radiator is neccesary to cool different setups? I've seen you can get 1, 2 and 3 fan versions of most radiators. I'm intending to watercool a quad-core Penryn, the northbridge and two GPUs, so I'm certain a 120.1 rad won't be enough, but will a 120.2? The 120.3 rad looks way too big to fit into a case without cutting holes in the sides.

Base it on about 140w per 120mm fan area with a reasonable pump and medium speed fans. A new quad, say 160W. NB, 40W. 2 GPU's depends what really, say 230W. Thats going to need a triple at least.

The case I'm intending to use is a Thermaltake Armour, as it looks like I could have a 120.2 radiator mounted vertically in the bottom front, sucking cool air in from outside. Will the fact that there's a stonking great radiator in front of the only inlet fans cause too much heat for the other non-watercooled components, like RAM?

Not a good idea, the radiator will be dumping its heatload into the case. Unless you have a really good air flow the case temps are going to get toasty.

Finally, can you daisy-chain rads together, so if the 120.2 wasn't enough, could I add a 120.1 rad to the loop using the 120mm exhaust fan mount on the back of the case, or will the fact that it's trying to cool the water using warmer air from inside the case become a problem? And if I can do this, can it be added anywhere in the loop or would the rads have to both be first in the series?

Yeah sure you can series link the rads, the loop order isnt as big a deal as you may think with a reasonable flow rate. The water temp will reach equilibrium around the loop, with small deltas before and after rads. Again cooler air is better, the final cooling temp achieved will increase by the temperature of the case air over the room ambient. Anyway you can mount an external PA120.3?