Water softeners and limescale

[EH75]

There's been a few threads about this over the years. I have replied in previous ones but from my understanding all softeners are essentially the same. Companies like Harvey's will sell you a lot of marketing nonsense about twin systems etc but in reality softening the water is a chemical process and the big companies are hilariously over priced. I did a lot of research before installing mine and went with a tap works AD11 which I bought off amazon for around 400 quid then paid my plumber a couple of hundred to fit it. This included putting in a drinking water tap in off the hard supply in the kitchen. Everything else is softened. Overall one of the best things I've ever done in the house.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

However you should be aware that whats deemed ok varies country by country. UK says 200, US says 270 for example.

We do have some of the best tap water in the world. I wouldn't take much stock from US standards though, way too many horror stories of tap water supplies being contaminated with nothing being done about it.

 

[mattyg]

I just fitted this in our commercial kitchen.

Automatic Water Softener for Catering, Commercial Dishwashers & Glasswashers

Automatic Water Softener for catering applications and commercial dishwashers / glasswashers. Also suitable for combi-steamer ovens and coffee machines. 1950 litre capacity before automatic regeneration.

www.buzzcateringsupplies.com

We were having a nightmare with the dishwasher.. its much better now.

I'm going to monitor how much water we are using then I may fit it to the incoming supply instead of just the washer

 

[jpaul]

my understanding all softeners are essentially the same.

hmmh - reverse osmosis isn't , no sodium ion after effects, but it has it's own issues like Ph; I don't know what % of the UK market it has.

Ideally for coffee/tea, my most important application, I'd like to compare samples, versus britta we currently use

 

[b0rn2sk8]

hmmh - reverse osmosis isn't , no sodium ion after effects, but it has it's own issues like Ph; I don't know what % of the UK market it has.

Ideally for coffee/tea, my most important application, I'd like to compare samples, versus britta we currently use

RO is not a water softener, RO is RO, it is essentially pure H2O.

When people talk about water softeners they mean those big appliances you put salt in and they strip out the calcium carbonate. What they said is 100% correct, all water softeners are essentially the same product. The only differences come down to how they determine if they need to recharge.

Metered and dual chamber devices are the best and timer based devices are the worst.

In terms of price timer tends to be the cheapest and dual chamber tend to be the most expensive.

 

[jpaul]

When people talk about water softeners they mean those big appliances you put salt in and they strip out the calcium carbonate.

if you are talking about water softening for drinks, which is many peoples concern and why they use brita, then RO is an alternative softener - yes its heading towards distilled water, so what.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

We’re not, we are talking about using water softeners to prevent limescale build up in a property and the potential downside of potentially increasing sodium above the legal levels in the water which you may also drink.

Brita or carbon block filters don’t remove calcium carbonate in any meaningful quantities. They are best suited to removing things like oder, chlorine and heavy metals. Great for taste but they don’t impact scale.

You can’t really RO a house supply and you shouldn’t really drink RO in significant quantities because there is literally nothing in it.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

We do have some of the best tap water in the world. I wouldn't take much stock from US standards though, way too many horror stories of tap water supplies being contaminated with nothing being done about it.

Agree. Really I was just trying to get across that the limit is somewhat arbitrary.
Clearly everyone agrees there has to be some limit of whats acceptable levels of sodium, but that limits isn't based on hard evidence.

 

[jpaul]

Brita or carbon block filters don’t remove calcium carbonate in any meaningful quantities. They are best suited to removing things like oder, chlorine and heavy metals. Great for taste but they don’t impact scale.

You can’t really RO a house supply and you shouldn’t really drink RO in significant quantities because there is literally nothing in it.

that's not true about brita V faq- they reduce caco3 using ion exchange resins you can see kettle reduction in scale ....but, also seem to some have capabilities like RO ! the ph change.
(I'd considered purchasing some rechargeable ion exchange resin for the espresso machine filter, and maybe replacing that in a used up britta filter, as an experiment, because filters are $$$)

The filter material of the MAXTRA+ water filter contains a mixture of ion exchange resins and activated carbon that has been tested to food grade quality. The ion exchange resin used reduces the carbonate hardness (limescale) and reduces metals, such as copper and lead that can occur as a result of domestic installation. The activated carbon reduces substances that may impair taste, such as chlorine and chlorine compounds.

I didn't say RO is a house supply solution, but if drinking water is a concern when you put an ion exchange system in for other water , then RO which does remove caco3 without having any sodium concerns is an option

 

[R4z0r]

Reading through this thread and convinced a water softener is a good idea. Could anyone recommend a decent dual tank model for a large house (4 bathrooms). I’d like to buy the unit separately and then have plumber install, bypass for drinking water, everything else softened.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

What makes you want to go for a dual tank model over a metered model?

Dual tanks are considerably more expensive and tend to be locked into more expensive block salt.

 

[Beta]

Reading through this thread and convinced a water softener is a good idea. Could anyone recommend a decent dual tank model for a large house (4 bathrooms). I’d like to buy the unit separately and then have plumber install, bypass for drinking water, everything else softened.

It sounds like you have similar needs to me and assuming you have an unvented cylinder given you’ve 4 bathrooms I would look to prioritise flow rate. Next decision is do you have power nearby where you would site it.

I didn’t which is why I went with the delta morava as it doesn’t require power and couldn’t be happier. I later relocated it due to replumbling the house and now have the tanks wall mounted with a remote salt reservoir.

Home - Delta Water Engineering

Revolutionary.Intelligent.Ecological. Non-electrical water technology Delta NON-ELECTRICAL WATER TECHNOLOGY The Delta brand is a revolutionary range of unique water treatment devices. Our compact devices require no power and consume a minimum of water and salt. Enjoy the perfect mix between...

deltawaterengineering.com

 

[R4z0r]

What makes you want to go for a dual tank model over a metered model?

Dual tanks are considerably more expensive and tend to be locked into more expensive block salt.

Flow rate for megaflow, but I’m far from an expert. If I have power nearby, is metered better? Looks way cheaper …

Also, are they easy to install? A family member is very competent at DIY, is this the sort of thing than can be done DIY or is a plumber needed?

 

[R4z0r]

It sounds like you have similar needs to me and assuming you have an unvented cylinder given you’ve 4 bathrooms I would look to prioritise flow rate. Next decision is do you have power nearby where you would site it.

I didn’t which is why I went with the delta morava as it doesn’t require power and couldn’t be happier. I later relocated it due to replumbling the house and now have the tanks wall mounted with a remote salt reservoir.

Home - Delta Water Engineering

Revolutionary.Intelligent.Ecological. Non-electrical water technology Delta NON-ELECTRICAL WATER TECHNOLOGY The Delta brand is a revolutionary range of unique water treatment devices. Our compact devices require no power and consume a minimum of water and salt. Enjoy the perfect mix between...

deltawaterengineering.com

Thanks, I saw your other posts and short listed the Delta Morava. I do have power, given that should I just save the money and buy a tapworks at half the price?

 

[jpaul]

yes - it's true, there does seem an absence of objective data confirming relative britta softening behaviour, search only turned up below, maybe which have done them.

Best Water Filter Pitcher for 2024

We tested all the top water filter brands including Brita, ZeroWater, Pur and more. Here's what you need to know.

www.cnet.com

Test results​

	TDS (% change)
Aarke Purifier	-39
Brita Metro Standard	-45.6
Brita Everyday	-45.6
Brita Longlast	-3.1
Hydros	-17.5
Larg self-cleaning	-2.2
Lifestraw	-2
Pur Plus	-6
ZeroWater	-100

 

[LuckyBenski]

yes - it's true, there does seem an absence of objective data confirming relative britta softening behaviour, search only turned up below, maybe which have done them.

Best Water Filter Pitcher for 2024

We tested all the top water filter brands including Brita, ZeroWater, Pur and more. Here's what you need to know.

www.cnet.com

Do hardness and TDS reduction correlate directly though?

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Flow rate for megaflow, but I’m far from an expert. If I have power nearby, is metered better? Looks way cheaper …

Also, are they easy to install? A family member is very competent at DIY, is this the sort of thing than can be done DIY or is a plumber needed?

Metered is best since it only actually charges when its basically exhausted the softening capability

They are pretty easy to install. Half the agro is getting all the parts you need in advance.
Eg I have a megaflow as well so needed high bore flexis which I could only get online via a specialist. Most had restricting flow rates so you need to be careful there

You could have course get some made up at a place that can make up flexi tubing, but they may not necessarily have high capacity ends either.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Flow rate for megaflow, but I’m far from an expert. If I have power nearby, is metered better? Looks way cheaper …

Also, are they easy to install? A family member is very competent at DIY, is this the sort of thing than can be done DIY or is a plumber needed?

The unit @dLockers linked which I also have says it has 28mm internal pipe work and is good for high flow rates. They sell full bore flexi pipes on their site, they are quite long though and not that flexible.

My neighbour had a branded softener (can’t remember which) and they used barbed fittings flexible house and pipe clips, a bit like water cooling back in the day. It’s a neat instal though.

Edit: the other thing about water softeners to consider is the amount of water they can soften before they need to recharge.

 

[Blackjack Davy]

Live in a very hard water area and have a softener. Not used it for ages after we ran out of salt and never got round to replacing it.
It did get rid of limescale but can't say I notice any real difference in the water itself for washing and drinking.
Having lived in a hard water area all my life just something I'm used to and can't say I l'd pay to get a softener installed. Our house had it fitted when we moved in so gave it a try.

Same but its really about kettles showers washing machines not getting furred up with limescale thats the benefit really I wouldn't drink the stuff thats asking for trouble and besides soft water just doesn't taste right!

 

[DB_SamX]

Can anyone confirm or point me in the direction of information/regulations about whether the waste pipe from a water softener needs to go to foul drainage or can it go to soakaway drainage?

My water softener needs to go in my utility room where my water mains is. The utility also happens to contain my boiler, whose 22mm condensate pipe, happens to connect to an external rainwater pipe. Harveys came today and said they cannot install the softener there (and nowhere else is suitable in my flat) because they cannot use that existing pipe for the softener's waste pipe. The chap said it has to go to a waste/foul drain, and I don't have one anywhere near my utility room. My rainwater goes to a nearby soakaway.

This issue may rule out a water softener altogether!