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Never clocked it either, gonna have to watch them all through again now. Glad its good so that's possible.
US: Westworld
- Thread starter the shadow
- Start date
Indeed. I love it when links are made to real life history/culture as well like the Bach's The Well tempered Clavier link I posted earlier.
Also, with regard to that work by Bach...- "It is also worth noting that Bach’s composition of the same name features predominantly fugues. A fugue, musically, is based on the repetition of a series of notes. As the notes repeat they change slightly, thus forming a series of circles that have ever growing variations. "
That sort of thing is clever, in terms of influences and ancillary detail, but it can't be the crux of what's going on because you can't reasonably expect people to know that sort of trivia. It's cute as an extra, but if you overdo it then it's self indulgent.
Soldato
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Think I'll have to watch it again, which is no bad thing. It threw me because Dolores was acting completely sentient in the William/Logan timeline and I thought the sentience/remembering past lives thing was a new bug in the present.
Ah, I was getting her mixed up with the corporate girl.
When Delores is in the lab under the church, as previously mentioned, it looks like there's been a battle/catastrophic failure in the park so probably not many people left who could recognise Arnold.
Think I'm going to go with Logan as Ed Harris' character. William is killed by Teddy and Delores when they go on their shooting spree.
One theory is that everything is a flashback and the park is now abandoned with just the hosts left stuck in their loops. Therefore that scene we see of the control rooms under the church looking abandoned with loads of dead hosts lying about is actually the present time.
probably not true but I quite like it.
Soldato
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Also, I wish they would hurry up and release the score! I want it for a Christmas present
Aye, it is brilliant!
my god i hope not.thats total recall all over again.
nothing lazier than oh it was a dream or memory.
I literally don't have the memory for this show. I do enjoy it on a basic level but feel all the major plot points are so subtle that its really easy to miss. Without reading this thread it wouldn't even have occurred to me that there were different timelines.
I still don't really know what is going on with all the different story lines.
I still don't really know what is going on with all the different story lines.
I think name meanings play a big part -
Wyatt is a patronymic surname and given name derived from a Middle English diminutive of an Old English personal name wīg "war" + heard "hard, brave", and of the names Guy and William.
The given name Logan is derived from the Scottish surname Logan, which is in turn derived from a place name. The likely origin of this surname is a place located near Auchinleck, in Ayrshire. The place name is derived from the Gaelic lagan, which is a diminutive of lag, which in turn means "hollow".
Dolores means "sorrows", taken from the Spanish title of the Virgin Mary María de los Dolores, meaning "Mary of Sorrows".
From this, I reckon Wyatt might be William and that Logan is the MIB. Or maybe Wyatt is a host based on William.
Logan means "hollow" and that is exactly what Logan and the MIB are, they feel nothing when killing/raping the hosts. They are hollow/without emotion.
Also Logan's personality matches up with the MIB much more than William's. The MIB shows the same disregard for the hosts and the MIB says he came back to the park to test who he really was and he said he felt nothing when doing horrible things.
Also, Wyatt is derived from the name William, and in the last episode that massacre that William carried out sure looked a lot like the scenes we have seen that Wyatt is supposed to be responsible for..
Ps also, "Maeve is a first name of Irish origin. In Irish Gaelic, the name "Medbh" or "Méadhbh" means "she who intoxicates".
I don't think these can all be coincidences.
There are other things as well - Logan has always gone on about finding the really good "quests" and storylines etc which is exactly what the MIB is doing, trying to find the ultimate quest.
Also, the BIG kicker is the fact that he tells Teddy that he only saw their lifelike consciousness when he killed Maeve's daughter (ie 30 years after the Will and Logan storyline).....that doesn't sound at ALL like William who thinks Dolores is alive 30 years before...
He says "the MAN IN BLACK: In all my years coming here, I had never seen anything like it. She was alive, truly alive, if only for a moment. And that was when the maze revealed itself to me."
This is simply not what William would say! "I had never seen anything like it". Having said that, I find it hard to believe William is the MIB.
Some guy on reddit goes in to more detail here -
https://www.reddit.com/r/westworld/...oilers_as_long_as_youve_seen_ep_8_proof_that/
Wyatt is a patronymic surname and given name derived from a Middle English diminutive of an Old English personal name wīg "war" + heard "hard, brave", and of the names Guy and William.
The given name Logan is derived from the Scottish surname Logan, which is in turn derived from a place name. The likely origin of this surname is a place located near Auchinleck, in Ayrshire. The place name is derived from the Gaelic lagan, which is a diminutive of lag, which in turn means "hollow".
Dolores means "sorrows", taken from the Spanish title of the Virgin Mary María de los Dolores, meaning "Mary of Sorrows".
From this, I reckon Wyatt might be William and that Logan is the MIB. Or maybe Wyatt is a host based on William.
Logan means "hollow" and that is exactly what Logan and the MIB are, they feel nothing when killing/raping the hosts. They are hollow/without emotion.
Also Logan's personality matches up with the MIB much more than William's. The MIB shows the same disregard for the hosts and the MIB says he came back to the park to test who he really was and he said he felt nothing when doing horrible things.
Also, Wyatt is derived from the name William, and in the last episode that massacre that William carried out sure looked a lot like the scenes we have seen that Wyatt is supposed to be responsible for..
Ps also, "Maeve is a first name of Irish origin. In Irish Gaelic, the name "Medbh" or "Méadhbh" means "she who intoxicates".
I don't think these can all be coincidences.
There are other things as well - Logan has always gone on about finding the really good "quests" and storylines etc which is exactly what the MIB is doing, trying to find the ultimate quest.
Also, the BIG kicker is the fact that he tells Teddy that he only saw their lifelike consciousness when he killed Maeve's daughter (ie 30 years after the Will and Logan storyline).....that doesn't sound at ALL like William who thinks Dolores is alive 30 years before...
He says "the MAN IN BLACK: In all my years coming here, I had never seen anything like it. She was alive, truly alive, if only for a moment. And that was when the maze revealed itself to me."
This is simply not what William would say! "I had never seen anything like it". Having said that, I find it hard to believe William is the MIB.
Some guy on reddit goes in to more detail here -
https://www.reddit.com/r/westworld/...oilers_as_long_as_youve_seen_ep_8_proof_that/
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Maybe:
Logan is the MiB.
William tries to help Delores escape and Logan kills him (and so saves the park).
Due to Logan's company now owning the park he arranges for William to be remade as Teddy. This was how he has his revenge, knowing William/Flood will forever be trapped in the park seeing Delores killed/raped by guests but never quite having her herself.
This explains why Delores is scared of the MiB but feels close to Teddy.
Wyatt is either William or a previous incarnation of Teddy.
Logan is the MiB.
William tries to help Delores escape and Logan kills him (and so saves the park).
Due to Logan's company now owning the park he arranges for William to be remade as Teddy. This was how he has his revenge, knowing William/Flood will forever be trapped in the park seeing Delores killed/raped by guests but never quite having her herself.
This explains why Delores is scared of the MiB but feels close to Teddy.
Wyatt is either William or a previous incarnation of Teddy.
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Soldato
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Thing is, if wyatt is part of ford's storyline, why is ford telling that story?
William probably is Wyatt, the maze as such is probably the hosts evolving from standard programming into enlightened form, thus the maze isn't for the MiB, but why is Ford telling this story.
Do you think he truely isn't Arnold's partner, but Arnold's first enlightened host? Doesn't even realise it himself?
He needs a meeting with Maeve, that ought to shake things up, Ford has never actually left the park either
William probably is Wyatt, the maze as such is probably the hosts evolving from standard programming into enlightened form, thus the maze isn't for the MiB, but why is Ford telling this story.
Do you think he truely isn't Arnold's partner, but Arnold's first enlightened host? Doesn't even realise it himself?
He needs a meeting with Maeve, that ought to shake things up, Ford has never actually left the park either
If William = MIB, at some point he must have a complete change of feeling towards Dolores and do something that terrifies her.
Going back to name meanings...
Given Name WILLIAM. GENDER: Masculine. USAGE: English. PRONOUNCED: WIL-ee-əm, WIL-yəm [key] From the Germanic name Willahelm, which was composed of the elements wil "will, desire" and helm "helmet, protection".
In German the meaning of the name William is: Resolute protector; will. For a long time after the Norman conquest in A.D. 1066 many English boys were given some form of William the Conquer's name. William. The firstborn son of Prince Charles is named William.
Again I don't think these name meanings are coincidence.
I reckon William might die next episode, trying to protect Dolores.
I'm still not totally sure MIB = Logan but I really don't think he is William.
Going back to name meanings...
Given Name WILLIAM. GENDER: Masculine. USAGE: English. PRONOUNCED: WIL-ee-əm, WIL-yəm [key] From the Germanic name Willahelm, which was composed of the elements wil "will, desire" and helm "helmet, protection".
In German the meaning of the name William is: Resolute protector; will. For a long time after the Norman conquest in A.D. 1066 many English boys were given some form of William the Conquer's name. William. The firstborn son of Prince Charles is named William.
Again I don't think these name meanings are coincidence.
I reckon William might die next episode, trying to protect Dolores.
I'm still not totally sure MIB = Logan but I really don't think he is William.
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I have so many theories on this, it's quite fun to guess but I'm worried we won't find out an answer this season. If you follow the path of GoT and similar you tend to get payoff if the penultimate episode of the series but the finale just poses a lot of questions.
I am wondering if the MIB is a host that Ford built to replace Logan or William after they die in the park. He needs their company to make the deal to save the park and if he has control of one of them they can continue to protect him and his interests. It might explain why he is also drawn to the maze.
Alternatively whatever happens to Delores in the next episode convinces William that she isn't Alice and is malfunctioning (probably killing Logan) and it's not until he sees what happens with Maeve that he realises it was real, now he is trying to recreate it. We also need to remember he tells the story of Maeve to Teddy and there isn't anything to say he is being wholly honest with him.
I equally like the idea that Watts is William. I'd also like it if he turned out to still be alive and Logan's deal with Ford to save the park is that he has to be kept there and prevented from leaving or coming in to contact with Delores.
I am wondering if the MIB is a host that Ford built to replace Logan or William after they die in the park. He needs their company to make the deal to save the park and if he has control of one of them they can continue to protect him and his interests. It might explain why he is also drawn to the maze.
Alternatively whatever happens to Delores in the next episode convinces William that she isn't Alice and is malfunctioning (probably killing Logan) and it's not until he sees what happens with Maeve that he realises it was real, now he is trying to recreate it. We also need to remember he tells the story of Maeve to Teddy and there isn't anything to say he is being wholly honest with him.
I equally like the idea that Watts is William. I'd also like it if he turned out to still be alive and Logan's deal with Ford to save the park is that he has to be kept there and prevented from leaving or coming in to contact with Delores.
Soldato
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What a twist, and so much speculation!
It's nice to see them pinching hooks from Westworld/Futureworld (specifically that Delos is iterating the idea of their perfect park until robots program other robots; and due to repeat cascade failures, body snatching and infiltration, they're are all artificial in the end and nothing's real; that is, most guests were killed on the first iteration, there was a cover up, reboot and take over; now robots think they're human, and relive their stories and betrayal on loop; in my opinion the big reveal will eventually end up being Westworld embedded inside Futureworld, possibly far from Earth, with no humans around or extinct -- super tinfoil ending), with some flourish and less Cold War paranoia.
Although like with most stories originating with Michael Crichton, I still maintain that Westworld should never have had a sequel or a series or a reboot. The longer they keep the horse going, the more AI cliches it'll run in to.
It's nice to see them pinching hooks from Westworld/Futureworld (specifically that Delos is iterating the idea of their perfect park until robots program other robots; and due to repeat cascade failures, body snatching and infiltration, they're are all artificial in the end and nothing's real; that is, most guests were killed on the first iteration, there was a cover up, reboot and take over; now robots think they're human, and relive their stories and betrayal on loop; in my opinion the big reveal will eventually end up being Westworld embedded inside Futureworld, possibly far from Earth, with no humans around or extinct -- super tinfoil ending), with some flourish and less Cold War paranoia.
Although like with most stories originating with Michael Crichton, I still maintain that Westworld should never have had a sequel or a series or a reboot. The longer they keep the horse going, the more AI cliches it'll run in to.
Weekend is upon us, last episode airs on Sunday night. Just a few musings:
There is something odd about the ep9 footage of younger Ford rushing to speak with Arnold. Watch the scene from the moment he opens the door. At first I blamed it on slightly ropey CGI, but there is also sound effect to it. Wonder if someone else can see it/hear it too....
In episode 6 Bernard discovers that there are 5 unregistered anomalies in the park. Upon arriving at the the house "not on any maps" in the forest he discovers it is occupied by "the last remaining hosts Arnold built himself" as a gift to Ford. Father Ford, Mama Ford, Tommy Ford and a little Robert with "demo facial feature". And the fifth anomaly is... a dog, right?
Below that house Ford utilises old diagnostic station. It has "older, slower" machines weaving a modern host in the basement. We all initially thought this would be "replacement host", like replacement for a dead director of operations or board member. But nothing ever became of it. Theresa's dead body was shown to the staff. Ford has faster machines upstairs for his scenarios. Who's body are the secret machines in secret lab weaving then?
Ford's otherwise super busy, god like, be everywhere, see everything, sleepless, 24/7 routine involves odd tasks, like repeatedly "chatting and drinking" with Old Bill in the cold storage. The man who stresses repeatedly to everyone in the park how "hosts aren't real, you must never forget that" somehow feels sentimental enough to dedicate his personal time and have a regular chat with an old mechanical "friend" because "he was always a good listener".
We still haven't seen Dolores' mother from the Abernathy "House On The Prairie" scenario and camera crew wen't out of shape to never show her face. But I can't think of who's face we could possibly see on that host though for it to be a worthy reveal?
I still don't see why Ford would send Bernard to murder Elsie (timeline doesn't stick either - she's talking to Bernard on the phone while he's at Theresa's literally moments before getting attacked). We know Theresa was leaking data for the Delos on orders from Charlotte. Surely such discovery makes Elsie ally to Ford.
Deepest, hopeless pain and loss is the sentient host's cornerstone.
There is something odd about the ep9 footage of younger Ford rushing to speak with Arnold. Watch the scene from the moment he opens the door. At first I blamed it on slightly ropey CGI, but there is also sound effect to it. Wonder if someone else can see it/hear it too....
In episode 6 Bernard discovers that there are 5 unregistered anomalies in the park. Upon arriving at the the house "not on any maps" in the forest he discovers it is occupied by "the last remaining hosts Arnold built himself" as a gift to Ford. Father Ford, Mama Ford, Tommy Ford and a little Robert with "demo facial feature". And the fifth anomaly is... a dog, right?
Below that house Ford utilises old diagnostic station. It has "older, slower" machines weaving a modern host in the basement. We all initially thought this would be "replacement host", like replacement for a dead director of operations or board member. But nothing ever became of it. Theresa's dead body was shown to the staff. Ford has faster machines upstairs for his scenarios. Who's body are the secret machines in secret lab weaving then?
Ford's otherwise super busy, god like, be everywhere, see everything, sleepless, 24/7 routine involves odd tasks, like repeatedly "chatting and drinking" with Old Bill in the cold storage. The man who stresses repeatedly to everyone in the park how "hosts aren't real, you must never forget that" somehow feels sentimental enough to dedicate his personal time and have a regular chat with an old mechanical "friend" because "he was always a good listener".
We still haven't seen Dolores' mother from the Abernathy "House On The Prairie" scenario and camera crew wen't out of shape to never show her face. But I can't think of who's face we could possibly see on that host though for it to be a worthy reveal?
I still don't see why Ford would send Bernard to murder Elsie (timeline doesn't stick either - she's talking to Bernard on the phone while he's at Theresa's literally moments before getting attacked). We know Theresa was leaking data for the Delos on orders from Charlotte. Surely such discovery makes Elsie ally to Ford.
Deepest, hopeless pain and loss is the sentient host's cornerstone.
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I'd thought he could be making an Elsie.
Whilst she would naturally be Ford's ally she knew too much about what he was doing. Also Ford wants to control everything and he isn't in control of her, I can see he would want her dead or replaced either way.
We will probably find that everyone working in the park is a host and has been replaced at some point otherwise how does no one notice that Bernard doesn't age?
Whilst she would naturally be Ford's ally she knew too much about what he was doing. Also Ford wants to control everything and he isn't in control of her, I can see he would want her dead or replaced either way.
We will probably find that everyone working in the park is a host and has been replaced at some point otherwise how does no one notice that Bernard doesn't age?
what if there more that one Bernard we know he a host. in last week show he said "we had this talk before" so what if Ford had ordered the earlier Bernard to kill him self but he had somehow survived and it is this earlier Bernard who has been reprogramming the host's