Whaley Bridge (UK) - attempted burglary / shooting

Soldato
Joined
17 Dec 2009
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10,258
I've been watching a news report about this and it as left me confused in the angle they took.


It seems strange to me that the suspected burglar who died is having a tribute read out from his local pub!?

I know we joke about steeple and npc behaviour but this seems to be a case in point, that someone died under any circumstance and the default reaction is to commiserate the death.

It seems like another example of people thinking they have to say something on social media, so instead of saying nothing they choose between condemnation and commiseration. It is very strange behaviour.

He would have been accused of burglary, taking someone elses things - possibly machinery. He's accused of not being a good person.

The people mourning him are of an entirely different culture and mindset to you and I. One that doesn’t see burglarising strangers as a bad thing. To them he was their friend, and that’s what matters, not that he was a cretin and it’s a good thing for society he is no longer with us.
 
Soldato
Joined
17 Dec 2009
Posts
10,258
I've been watching a news report about this and it as left me confused in the angle they took.


It seems strange to me that the suspected burglar who died is having a tribute read out from his local pub!?

I know we joke about steeple and npc behaviour but this seems to be a case in point, that someone died under any circumstance and the default reaction is to commiserate the death.

It seems like another example of people thinking they have to say something on social media, so instead of saying nothing they choose between condemnation and commiseration. It is very strange behaviour.

He would have been accused of burglary, taking someone elses things - possibly machinery. He's accused of not being a good person.
Oh, and it’s been deleted from their social media. They probably got absolutely rinsed for it.
 
Associate
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Looks like a farmer wasn't too happy with being burgled and shot two people, killing one.


The farmer has been arrested for "murder and attempted murder". I'd be very surprised if he was convicted unless he's somehow entrapped the would-be burglars. What do you think about this incident?
I no were this farm is and I can tell you the drive to the farm is about 1/2 a mile long
The farmer is a really nice guy I hope for his family sake he is not charged
How can this be allowed the police have said the 3 burglars went with aggravated burglar (weapons fire arms) what is he meant to do to protect him self
From what I have read the police were already called about the burglars being there

One farmer trying to make a living on his own land / farm and some low life try’s to take it absolutely disgusting
 
Man of Honour
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Just to the left of my PC
@Angilion - that’s not how castle doctrine works. There still has to be a reasonable belief that there’s a threat to you, e.g. not just a kid running on to your grass to get a ball back.


That's what at least many of the people people calling for castle doctrine are calling for. If they were content with reasonableness as a legal standard they wouldn't be objecting so vigorously to the concept of reasonable force that we already have. A concept that explicitly allows defensive use of violence up to and including killing. The only difference between the form of castle doctrine that you describe and how the law already is in the UK is the effectiveness of commonly available weapons. The law's the same. The UK already has what you call castle doctrine. So that can't be what people advocating for the law to be changed want.

Also, just look at the posts in this thread. Many of them are openly advocating for people to have the right to kill on sight anyone on their property. Even the article you refer to acknowledges that's what many people think castle doctrine is.
 
Soldato
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The people mourning him are of an entirely different culture and mindset to you and I. One that doesn’t see burglarising strangers as a bad thing. To them he was their friend, and that’s what matters, not that he was a cretin and it’s a good thing for society he is no longer with us.
What if it skews the metrics tho? :(
 
Soldato
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Warrington
Do hear about farms in the middle of nowhere being robbed frequently and police doing bugger all about it, so not surprising the farmer felt he had to do something. Particularly if the men were armed.

Assuming it doesn't turn out the farmer lured them there or something I hope he gets off scott free.

Maybe it'll disuade other would-be robbers.
 
Caporegime
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Warwickshire
I don't get this obsession with not hurting them if they're turning to flee. How tf would you know if they were making an escape, or heading to another part of your house where your kids are, or to regroup outside before coming back to attack you again?

Blast first, ask questions later should be ok when someone threatening or dangerous has entered your property.
 
Soldato
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N. Ireland
That's what at least many of the people people calling for castle doctrine are calling for. If they were content with reasonableness as a legal standard they wouldn't be objecting so vigorously to the concept of reasonable force that we already have. A concept that explicitly allows defensive use of violence up to and including killing. The only difference between the form of castle doctrine that you describe and how the law already is in the UK is the effectiveness of commonly available weapons. The law's the same. The UK already has what you call castle doctrine. So that can't be what people advocating for the law to be changed want.
Or, maybe rather than wanting to kill anyone who sets foot on their grass if they fancy it, most of these people you mention just hear a catchy term like ‘Castle Doctrine’ without actually realising our existing laws are pretty much the same?
Also, just look at the posts in this thread. Many of them are openly advocating for people to have the right to kill on sight anyone on their property
Just read the thread after a 6hr drive so quite possible I missed a post or 2 but can you point me to the posts ‘openly advocating for people to have the right to kill on sight anyone on their property’
 
Commissario
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Panting like a fiend
Wouldn’t be surprised if the farmer spends a few years at his majesty’s pleasure.

Potential Tony Martin 2.0.

But we will see what the facts of the case are in the end and see what happens from there.
IIRC the one thing you're not meant to do in the UK is use your licenced guns for "self defence". If they're stored properly you shouldn't be able to get to them as a first resort.

From memory you're not even meant to have the ammunition and the guns in the same place and they are both meant to be stored in locked cases, which means the only time you should have a gun and ammo "to hand" is if you're actively planning on using them, or transporting them to and from a place where they will be used (IIRC stored in the boot of your vehicle, probably locked in an approved secured case for many types).
IIRC the police give a pretty much automatic fast response to any address with registered guns, in part to reduce the risk of them getting into the wrong hands during a break in.


I don't get this obsession with not hurting them if they're turning to flee. How tf would you know if they were making an escape, or heading to another part of your house where your kids are, or to regroup outside before coming back to attack you again?

Blast first, ask questions later should be ok when someone threatening or dangerous has entered your property.
Because it means that you can basically kill anyone you want and claim "they were a threat".

The law operates on facts, evidence and probabilities, not "maybe's".
However the law also tends to work on the principle that you really have to go massively over the top, or demonstrate you went far beyond what could ever reasonably be defined as "self defence" to get found guilty, if just because in any such trial the prosecution have to get a jury of 12 normal people to agree that you went over the top.
It's telling that in the last 30 odd years there has only IIRC been a handful on instances where a Jury has thought that, and the only two I can think of off the top of my head were Tony Martin with an illegal gun, traps, shooting someone in the bank and not calling the police, and the group of vigilantes that formed up after the fact and went out and hunted the person who'd tried attacking/breaking into one of their properties and murdered him on the street in front of dozens of witnesses who were pleading with them to stop.
Meanwhile a guy who used a speargun (kept in his broom cupboard by the front door, with his other diving gear) to stop the person that was trying to break his door down whilst threatening him was found not guilty. And IIRC Kennith Noye back in the 80's persuaded a jury that upon seeing suspicious activity in his garden he went out and stabbed a guy multiple times and it was self defence (the guy he killed was a police officer), however that same defence didn't work for him when he did it again a few years later to a motorist in broad daylight in a "road rage" attack.

Also and this is a key thing, you will tend to find it hard to argue "I was in fear for my life" when you're actively prolonging the encounter and thus threat by say following someone, or going after them once they're trying to get out a window.

As I say it's amazing how far you have to go for a Jury of 12 normal people to find you guilty if it's a death involving someone that tried to break into your property.
 
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Caporegime
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Thoughts and prayers for this thoroughly misunderstood good lad, wrong place, wrong time, until we meet again boyo.
 
Soldato
Joined
8 Jun 2013
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4,379
I don't get this obsession with not hurting them if they're turning to flee. How tf would you know if they were making an escape, or heading to another part of your house where your kids are, or to regroup outside before coming back to attack you again?

Blast first, ask questions later should be ok when someone threatening or dangerous has entered your property.
they did it once, no reason whatsoever to let them come backa second time, more angry and determined to make you pay for what you did first time. end them, bury them.
 
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