What DAC?

commited · 22 Jan 2006 at 01:01

Does the EMU0404 have a digital out?

Sony CDP's arent the best transports out there, but they arent terrible.
I'm currently looking into transports for my DAC, and I'm looking at some of the older Marantz's and newer DVD players. It's a bit of a minefield because I cant demo anything, but the Marantz CD-63 and CD-67 are meant to be easily moddable and quite cheap.

I'm a fan of using a CD player over a PC every time, but I will be running my PC through my DAC when I'm working etc, just for ease of use. I have to sort out my music first though - all my CDs are ripped at 192

If yer on MSN, gimme a bell

-Ad- · 22 Jan 2006 at 01:23

commited said:
Does the EMU0404 have a digital out?

Sony CDP's arent the best transports out there, but they arent terrible.
I'm currently looking into transports for my DAC, and I'm looking at some of the older Marantz's and newer DVD players. It's a bit of a minefield because I cant demo anything, but the Marantz CD-63 and CD-67 are meant to be easily moddable and quite cheap.

I'm a fan of using a CD player over a PC every time, but I will be running my PC through my DAC when I'm working etc, just for ease of use. I have to sort out my music first though - all my CDs are ripped at 192

If yer on MSN, gimme a bell

Yep, the emu has digital coaxial in + out, and optical in + out.

From what i have read, the CD-63 is an excellent machine and is easily modded. Apparently, the easiest and cheapest mod is dampening the CDP. Placing dampening material on the underside of the top part of the case, isolating the boards, and filling the feet with blue-tack

But i'm on a lookout for a marantz 6000OSE, which is like a newer CD-63, and is more aesthetically pleasing. Some lucky sod got one of these on the bay for ~£10, but i think the auction was ended early by the seller :rolleyes:

edit. Found your msn addy

Ad

commited · 22 Jan 2006 at 01:33

You kids with your looks over sound

I'm thinking of some pretty heavy mods - I want to convert whatever I get to top loading and also do all of the dampening mods

I'm still looking into it, but the old Marantz players seem to be the way to go!

darreny · 22 Jan 2006 at 11:04

i have an old marantz cd63 you can have for postage

Yewen · 22 Jan 2006 at 12:16

I think commited might take that.

Ill nudge him on MSN when he wakes up

-Ad- · 22 Jan 2006 at 12:50

commited said:
You kids with your looks over sound

I'm thinking of some pretty heavy mods - I want to convert whatever I get to top loading and also do all of the dampening mods
I'm still looking into it, but the old Marantz players seem to be the way to go!

I just think that the 6000 series looks much nicer than the CD-63, and also easier to use. CDR and -RW capability is also important to me, as i have a lot of copied cd's. But on the other hand, these CD-63's seem to be far too cheap, or even FREE :eek:

Damn, you commited, i think i've caught the modding bug now, as il have nothing to mod after my soundcard, and a pc costs too much to keep upgrading

Yewen · 22 Jan 2006 at 12:59

The looks dont matter, and a copy can never equal the original medium the music was on.

So really it is not that big a issue. The extra support might also degrade the sound due to more circuitry gizmology for the signal to go through, although I could be wrong.

-Ad- · 22 Jan 2006 at 13:56

Yewen said:
The looks dont matter, and a copy can never equal the original medium the music was on.

So really it is not that big a issue. The extra support might also degrade the sound due to more circuitry gizmology for the signal to go through, although I could be wrong.

AFter looking at some hi-res pics of the cd-63 just now i have changed my mind about its looks. It looks ok, and if i could get one cheap i think id snap it up straight away, ready to dissect.
I would only find the CD-R and -RW feature usefull when i back up my remaining cd's, as a number of my older disks are well worn now, which skip in my dads older rotel CDP.

Magsy · 22 Jan 2006 at 14:39

I have two modded 0404's, opamp swaps, buffers removed and no output caps.

I have had the Derek Shrek DAC here and also own a Peter Daniels TDA1543 ( http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51381&perpage=10&pagenumber=13 )

Don't expect either of these to blow the 0404 away, they sound different but not leagues ahead.
It is a very different sound, I like the 0404 upsampling to 176khz, there is a clarity there which is missing on the NON OS. The NON OS dacs are smooth and warm, vocal projection is great, bass is better and they do give great musicality. They make tardy encodes/rips more listenable which is a bonus.

They are both better than the 0404 but not in all areas. The PD is better than the DS model, but it should be because it costs twice as much and you need to DIY it.

I guess my summary is the TDA1543s are subtle and the 0404 is in your face, pick your flavour.

If you want help modding the 0404 as per headfi (I have pictures posted over there) then just ask.

commited · 22 Jan 2006 at 16:03

darreny said:
i have an old marantz cd63 you can have for postage

As Yewen says, I'll definately take that Darreny - I've added you to MSN if you dont mind

adfinni said:
I just think that the 6000 series looks much nicer than the CD-63, and also easier to use. CDR and -RW capability is also important to me, as i have a lot of copied cd's. But on the other hand, these CD-63's seem to be far too cheap, or even FREE

Damn, you commited, i think i've caught the modding bug now, as il have nothing to mod after my soundcard, and a pc costs too much to keep upgrading

The Marantz CD6000 uses the VAM1201 transport, which is the same as the CD4000 and CD5000. The main difference (in the transport stage) being that the CD4000 and 5000 use NJM4560 opamps and the CD6000 uses NJM2114 opamps. Interestingly enough - the CD-17Mk2 uses the same transport too with NJM2114/HDAM opamps.

The following all share the same transport as the CD-63 (CDM12.1):
MARANTZ CD1010/20 MARANTZ CD14 MARANTZ CD38 MARANTZ CD43 MARANTZ CD46 MARANTZ CD48 MARANTZ CD53 MARANTZ CD57/57 II MARANTZ CD63II MARANTZ CD63mkII KI MARANTZ CD63SE MARANTZ CD67 MARANTZ CD67SE MARANTZ CD67II OSE

From what I read the CD-63 CAN read CD-R's but obviously I cant guarantee it. It's not really an issue for me

I caught the modding bug this time last year and I've now sold my Arcam setup and I've headed down the DIY route

Magsy said:
I have two modded 0404's, opamp swaps, buffers removed and no output caps.

I have had the Derek Shrek DAC here and also own a Peter Daniels TDA1543 ( http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51381&perpage=10&pagenumber=13 )

Don't expect either of these to blow the 0404 away, they sound different but not leagues ahead.
It is a very different sound, I like the 0404 upsampling to 176khz, there is a clarity there which is missing on the NON OS. The NON OS dacs are smooth and warm, vocal projection is great, bass is better and they do give great musicality. They make tardy encodes/rips more listenable which is a bonus.

They are both better than the 0404 but not in all areas. The PD is better than the DS model, but it should be because it costs twice as much and you need to DIY it.

I guess my summary is the TDA1543s are subtle and the 0404 is in your face, pick your flavour.

If you want help modding the 0404 as per headfi (I have pictures posted over there) then just ask.

Do you have the V1 or V2 Derek Shek DAC (i.e clear case or black case)?
What CD player do you use with the DS?

I'd really like to hear an EMU0404 - have they lost all their driver issues now?

darreny · 22 Jan 2006 at 16:49

i can check cd r compatability if any wants to know on the cd63

-Ad- · 22 Jan 2006 at 18:18

Magsy said:
I have two modded 0404's, opamp swaps, buffers removed and no output caps.

Don't expect either of these to blow the 0404 away, they sound different but not leagues ahead.
It is a very different sound, I like the 0404 upsampling to 176khz, there is a clarity there which is missing on the NON OS. The NON OS dacs are smooth and warm, vocal projection is great, bass is better and they do give great musicality. They make tardy encodes/rips more listenable which is a bonus.

They are both better than the 0404 but not in all areas. The PD is better than the DS model, but it should be because it costs twice as much and you need to DIY it.

I guess my summary is the TDA1543s are subtle and the 0404 is in your face, pick your flavour.

If you want help modding the 0404 as per headfi (I have pictures posted over there) then just ask.

Hey there magsy. I have the thread with you guide saved in my bookmarks, as it's easy to follow, and has enough detail

I'm going to order a cheap antex 30W soldering iron, a 0.5mm tip, and some silver solder from a place online. Is that all i need to remoce the output caps, and buffers? Il probably get a solder sucker to help remove as much solder as possible from the legs of the output buffer chips, then il just bridge the required parts to bypass them.

Sos for going off topic:

Most importantly, im a bit stuck with replacing the op-amp. I would like to purchase an LT1364, but have found two variations on a website, but im not sure if i can link it:

1.) LT1364 dual 70MHz 1000V/us SOIC op amp. Part no: LT1364CS8

2.) Dual fast op-amp, LT1364CN8 DIP8. Part no: LT1364CN8

Which one should i chose, and would i just be able to solder it on like the old chip, or do i need one of these browndog, adapters ive heard of ? Also, what is the difference between SOIC and DIP8?

This is the the last mod that i will probably do the card, and won't bother to replace loads of caps.

thanks

ad

Magsy · 23 Jan 2006 at 00:16

I'm unsure which DS Dac I had, it wasn't mine and was re-cased. I think it was originally clear cased.

I don't have anything other than computer sources, little interest in CD playback to be honest. My EMU's are modded with real 75ohm BNC connectors on the digital outs but that is a whole other topic (75ohm jacks/cabling).

You need the SOIC opamps, surface mount. DIP 8 are the larger 'plug in' style.

Mess with the buffers first, because you are just bypassing them anyway. Removing SOIC opamps is not easy and the reason I have two 0404's, I destroyed the first ones analog section with multiple removals.

Removal is a pain, I'm a fair bit more skilled now than when I started messing with my cards but I was not new to soldering back then.

The sucker is useless imo, use the solder mop braid to remove as much solder as you can. You can get nearly all of it off but don't ever think the opamp will just drop off, resist levering it off for as long as you can. You will lift the traces underneath it you get it wrong - this is what I did. You can try and heat several pads at once while gently prising it up.

After having done maybe 10 opamp swaps on the cards using the braid method I'd recommend you cut the damn things off - cut each pin and remove the chip. Then clean the pads using the iron and solder the new opamp on. This is the safest method by far but requires a leap of faith :]

Putting the new ones on is easy, clean the pads and add some flux to them. Put the opamp on and heat each pin in turn with a little solder on the iron, the flux will suck the solder on.

Just solder bridge the output caps, no real need to remove them. You need to bridge the buffers too once removed..

The browndog adaptors allow you to convert single channel opamps into two channel versions or SOIC ones into DIP 8, or even DIP8 into SOIC. I have these on my board to enable me to swap opamps via a socket. I have a BD soldered on and that has a socket on it, I can then drop in what I choose.

I've made is sound a nightmare but it is not that bad, just a little time and a lot of patience and anybody can manage it!

I haven't had any issues with the drivers on the EMU, I don't know what the fuss is about. It is cheap but it is a pro card and it functions as such, people forget this. I have it in a big Intel rig, heavily oc'd, SCSI etcetc and have had no conflicts, drop outs or stutters. I have been running one for about a year, maybe more.

You need to set the right sample rate at times and the Patchmix software is possibly overwhelming - it is good but can be confusing as hell! If you have high sample rate set then you get no Windows sounds or sound from games. This means that if you like to listen at 88.2khz+ and also game, you need to switch using Patchmix everytime. Gaming is fine, I play CS:S, HL2 and Q4 with no problems.

-Ad- · 23 Jan 2006 at 12:49

Magsy said:
You need the SOIC opamps, surface mount. DIP 8 are the larger 'plug in' style.

The browndog adaptors allow you to convert single channel opamps into two channel versions or SOIC ones into DIP 8, or even DIP8 into SOIC. I have these on my board to enable me to swap opamps via a socket. I have a BD soldered on and that has a socket on it, I can then drop in what I choose.

Ok cool. I'm not looking to do op-amp rolling, but would it be better to solder on a BD then get the DIP op-amp and slot them in ???

Magsy said:
The sucker is useless imo, use the solder mop braid to remove as much solder as you can. You can get nearly all of it off but don't ever think the opamp will just drop off, resist levering it off for as long as you can. You will lift the traces underneath it you get it wrong - this is what I did. You can try and heat several pads at once while gently prising it up.

Don't worry im quite a perfectionist and have a lot of patience. Il get a sucker as well as the braid, because ive always wanted to play with since since i used them at school years ago.

Magsy said:
After having done maybe 10 opamp swaps on the cards using the braid method I'd recommend you cut the damn things off - cut each pin and remove the chip. Then clean the pads using the iron and solder the new opamp on. This is the safest method by far but requires a leap of faith :]

By cutting, do you mean cutting offer the two buffer chips and the op-amp? That would best be done with a small pair of electrical pliers, then i could remove the cut-off legs individually. I might still try and take the 3 chips off whole (carefully), then cut the legs if im finding it hard.

Magsy said:
Putting the new ones on is easy, clean the pads and add some flux to them. Put the opamp on and heat each pin in turn with a little solder on the iron, the flux will suck the solder on.

I thought that solder came with flux in it. Will ihave to check the silver solder that i buy comes with it?

Magsy said:
Just solder bridge the output caps, no real need to remove them. You need to bridge the buffers too once removed.

Right.

Magsy said:
The browndog adaptors allow you to convert single channel opamps into two channel versions or SOIC ones into DIP 8, or even DIP8 into SOIC. I have these on my board to enable me to swap opamps via a socket. I have a BD soldered on and that has a socket on it, I can then drop in what I choose.

I've made is sound a nightmare but it is not that bad, just a little time and a lot of patience and anybody can manage it!

So, what browndog will i need to get, and then will it just solder on where the old op-amp comes off, then il be able to slot in DIP8 op-amps like the lt1364 and 8620 ???

Magsy said:
You need to set the right sample rate at times and the Patchmix software is possibly overwhelming - it is good but can be confusing as hell! If you have high sample rate set then you get no Windows sounds or sound from games. This means that if you like to listen at 88.2khz+ and also game, you need to switch using Patchmix everytime. Gaming is fine, I play CS:S, HL2 and Q4 with no problems.

What is the point of setting a 88.2khz sample level, as i thought cds were recorded at 44.1khz. How would i get the best sound from my emu for music, and also allow myself to play CS-S, hl2, COD2, etc??

thanks a lot

ad

Magsy · 23 Jan 2006 at 15:41

You need an SOIC opamp, if you are not rolling then you certainly want to solder it direct.

I do mean cut the legs of the opamp with a small cutters

The body of it will fall off just leaving the legs stuck to the pads.

Solder will have flux but I mean flux paste/liquid (cheap). These opamps are tiny and whilst you can actually touch each pin with the iron easily enough, holding the opamp in place and the iron while pushing in solder requires 3 hands. If you flux the pads you should not need to add solder, what is on the pads/iron will just flow. By no means do you have to use the flux, but it is a nice addition to the toolkit. The amount of solder needed to secure an SOIC opamp is miniscule.

While CD's may be 44.1khz you can upsample them in Foobar/Winamp to higher rates. This is a little like upsampling a dvd to a higher resolution. You either love it or hate it, in my opinion it opens up the top end nicely (some say harsh) and also covers up some artifacts which get smoothed out, I like it on pop music/mp3.
Personally if using the 0404 I am always at 176.4khz. To play CS I have to open Patchmix, change to a 44.1khz preset and away to go. You can shortcut this on your desktop.

commited · 23 Jan 2006 at 17:34

darreny said:
i can check cd r compatability if any wants to know on the cd63

Any news on this Darren?

-Ad- · 23 Jan 2006 at 20:47

Magsy said:
You need an SOIC opamp, if you are not rolling then you certainly want to solder it direct.

I do mean cut the legs of the opamp with a small cutters The body of it will fall off just leaving the legs stuck to the pads.

Solder will have flux but I mean flux paste/liquid (cheap). These opamps are tiny and whilst you can actually touch each pin with the iron easily enough, holding the opamp in place and the iron while pushing in solder requires 3 hands. If you flux the pads you should not need to add solder, what is on the pads/iron will just flow. By no means do you have to use the flux, but it is a nice addition to the toolkit. The amount of solder needed to secure an SOIC opamp is miniscule.

Ok sweet, il buy 4m of solder and use it all on the new op-amp :rolleyes:

How large was increase in the sound quality at eaach of the stages in modding:

1.) bridging output caps?
2.) removing and bridging buffers?
3.)replacing op-amp with lt1364?

Magsy said:
While CD's may be 44.1khz you can upsample them in Foobar/Winamp to higher rates. This is a little like upsampling a dvd to a higher resolution. You either love it or hate it, in my opinion it opens up the top end nicely (some say harsh) and also covers up some artifacts which get smoothed out, I like it on pop music/mp3.
Personally if using the 0404 I am always at 176.4khz. To play CS I have to open Patchmix, change to a 44.1khz preset and away to go. You can shortcut this on your desktop.

Il have a fiddle around with that.

@darreny. i would also like to know the cdr compatability with the cd63 as mines on it's way too, just like mark's

darreny · 23 Jan 2006 at 21:04

commited said:
Any news on this Darren?

not had chance yet, will def check it tonight

commited · 23 Jan 2006 at 21:19

darreny said:
not had chance yet, will def check it tonight

Great!
Come onto MSN after and I'll sort out payment

Mark

Magsy · 24 Jan 2006 at 15:18

adfinni said:
Ok sweet, il buy 4m of solder and use it all on the new op-amp

How large was increase in the sound quality at eaach of the stages in modding:

1.) bridging output caps?
2.) removing and bridging buffers?
3.)replacing op-amp with lt1364?

I did it all at once so I am not sure, but the difference is quite pronounced.

Opamp changing can make a big difference, I found the AD8620 bright, the OPA627 dark/thick and the LT1364 about right. I tired others aswell but nothing was as good as those three. It is more about system synergy than what is best I feel.