What defines a 'big club' and how well would Scottish teams do in the Premier League?

[Nemeses]

Discussion moved here from Transfers Thread.

Errrr, Arsenal are bigger than Liverpool and Spurs etc, Forbes say so.

Well even though Arsenal are rated bigger than the pool, I think they are very similar in size, but I do think both clubs are a lot bigger than the spuds, Arsenal and spurs where of similar size pre AW, Arsene no matter what people say about him took us from a big english club to a huge worlds wide club. (and even if people don't want to acknowledge that its very true), pre AW liverpool were a lot bigger than us, that's not true anymore

(One other thing, the only real way to gauge clubs size is the way Forbes does by the numbers as they don't lie)

 

[iamthenugget]

Well even though Arsenal are rated bigger than the pool, I think they are very similar in size, but I do think both clubs are a lot bigger than the spuds, Arsenal and spurs where of similar size pre AW, Arsene no matter what people say about him took us from a big english club to a huge worlds wide club. (and even if people don't want to acknowledge that its very true), pre AW liverpool were a lot bigger than us, that's not true anymore

(One other thing, the only real way to gauge clubs size is the way Forbes does by the numbers as they don't lie)

Club size does not equal success tho and in the likes if arsenal's case is very true.

Historically arsenal have always been a 2 season possibly 3 season wonder at best and as far as I'm aware have never came close to dominating English or European football the wayan Utd and Liverpool have done on numerous occasions in the past.

 

[Nemeses]

Club size does not equal success tho and in the likes if arsenal's case is very true.

Historically arsenal have always been a 2 season possibly 3 season wonder at best and as far as I'm aware have never came close to dominating English or European football the wayan Utd and Liverpool have done on numerous occasions in the past.

I never once said it did, but Liverpool have never won the premiership, and that shows how far that club has fallen, a club like liverpool should have won it by now. (and no i'm not saying any club has the right to win it)

And for 3/5 years we did dominate the prem, only one other club can really say that I ignore chelsea as they never build but buy titles, which i know may sound bitter buts its not, when they do win the prem it never bugs me, as I really don't care when its them, if they ever built a team, (just once and won the title i would feel differently but they don't ..)

I should maybe add if i was not a Arsenal fan i would have been a pool fan, always liked em always will ..I just love Arsenal )

 

[iamthenugget]

I never once said it did, but Liverpool have never won the premiership, and that shows how far that club has fallen, a club like liverpool should have won it by now. (and no i'm not saying any club has the right to win it)

And for 3/5 years we did dominate the prem, only one other club can really say that I ignore chelsea as they never build but buy titles, which i know may sound bitter buts its not, when they do win the prem it never bugs me, as I really don't care when its them, if they ever built a team, (just once and won the title i would feel differently but they don't ..)

I should maybe add if i was not a Arsenal fan i would have been a pool fan, always liked em always will ..I just love Arsenal )

yes i agree with what your saying totally, however a 2 or 3 year burst in the premiership in my eyes does not come close to what many so called or genuine big clubs have done. after all the big guns dont compare titles its all about champs league trophies, of which notts forest and aston villa have won more than arsenal.

not having a go however i feel that being classed as a big club nowadays means nothing,

in context rangers were in the lowest tier of European football and playing essentially pub teams or sunday league football at best and every other weekend had the highest attendance in british football and took qpprox 300k+ to a european final less than 10 years ago and celtic have an even bigger following in scotland ( hence why the EPL or FA is scared of the glasgow clubs going south ). realistically should a following fanbase not dictate a clubs universal appeal rather than stock price shares etc???

 

[Nemeses]

in context rangers were in the lowest tier of European football and playing essentially pub teams or sunday league football at best and every other weekend had the highest attendance in british football and took qpprox 300k+ to a european final less than 10 years ago and celtic have an even bigger following in scotland ( hence why the EPL or FA is scared of the glasgow clubs going south ). realistically should a following fanbase not dictate a clubs universal appeal rather than stock price shares etc???

I certainly don't agree they scared, why would any league allow a different leagues club to join, which English clubs should then lose out to to the two Scottish clubs taking their place and even if they made the Prem 22 clubs so none lose out, two are still losing out because any championship club would argue that those spots should belong to them, thats the reason they not allowed to join the Prem has nothing to do with been scared.

If they wanted to join the English football leagues, they should start at the lowest tier (somewhere around tier 22) which they will never do.

 

[iamthenugget]

I certainly don't agree they scared, why would any league allow a different leagues club to join, which English clubs should then lose out to to the two Scottish clubs taking their place and even if they made the Prem 22 clubs so none lose out, two are still losing out because any championship club would argue that those spots should belong to them, thats the reason they not allowed to join the Prem has nothing to do with been scared.

If they wanted to join the English football leagues, they should start at the lowest tier (somewhere around tier 22) which they will never do.

shall we ignore cardiff, swansea etc??? along with the fact that the scots help bankroll the EPL with no benefit in return whatsoever???? of course we cant nor will go down that route shall we

 

[Nemeses]

shall we ignore cardiff, swansea etc??? along with the fact that the scots help bankroll the EPL with no benefit in return whatsoever???? of course we cant nor will go down that route shall we

No, where and when did they start in the english league, did they just appear in the prem I don't think so ..in fact they joined the Association football from day 1, so it its nothing like the same, and a pretty foolish argument to try use.

Welsh professional club teams traditionally played in the same leagues as their English counterparts,

Added: would love to know how the scots bankrolled the EPL?

 

[iamthenugget]

fwiw worth i agree the 2 big teams in scotland should join at the lowest level and work there way up thru the leagues, however with sky dictating what happens along with the english FA worried about its standing in world football it was nor ever will happen. unfortunately the 2 glasgow clubs could and given the riches of english football would more than likely rule english/british football after a short bedding in period and that is something that no english football official/club/fan would never allow despite the fact that it would enhance the league and national team

 

[iamthenugget]

No where and when did they start in the english league, did they just appear in the prem I don't think so ..in fact they joined from day 1, so it its nothing like the same, and a pretty foolish argument to try use.

ive already stated that any scottish club should start at the bottom. however no acceptance that the scots/welsh/irish etc bankroll the EPL with no benefit to there own leagues.

how does it work with sky cash. the team relegated from the EPL receives parachute payments for 1 year that total all home nations income from sky for 12 years?? yet you wont admit you have killed british football full stop?? after all it was less than 14 days ago the mighty struggled to draw with the scots who ironically have one of if not the worst squads and managers they have ever had in there history and sitting at an almost all time low

 

[bloodline76]

Is this still the transfer rumours or who has the biggest...club?

Is a fallen giant still a giant...

Remember the good old days...

I think that can only go on for a certain amount of years before be coming irrelevant. I think it's very close for some.

Sounds like Arsenal are going to have to have a clear out to pay for increased wages, not a bad thing, should help get rid of some fringe players and through some youth.

Some insane transfer fees going around though.

 

[Nemeses]

ive already stated that any scottish club should start at the bottom. however no acceptance that the scots/welsh/irish etc bankroll the EPL with no benefit to there own leagues.

how does it work with sky cash. the team relegated from the EPL receives parachute payments for 1 year that total all home nations income from sky for 12 years?? yet you wont admit you have killed british football full stop?? after all it was less than 14 days ago the mighty struggled to draw with the scots who ironically have one of if not the worst squads and managers they have ever had in there history and sitting at an almost all time low

Wait you saying that because sky pay way more money to the english teams than they do the scots, that equals the scots bankrolling the epl, all i can say is wow.

Why should the scots get more, all clubs are paid at market value, if the scot prem was at a higher market value, they would get more but they not.

Go blame the rest of the world who would rather watch 2 teams fighting for 19th and 20th in the prem than watch any scottish football team.

The scots by the way they handled the ranger fisco (and believe me i don't like rangers) showed they are clueless, they killed scottish football, not just over that but everything they do, they handle it badly ( i'm not english im south african so no oar in the water for english or scottish side) i just look at it as it is.

If i had the choice of watching a low team in the prem v any scottish game i would choose that as it way more competitive, lest when you guys had rangers there was a bit of competition between the old firm , but now its a nothing one horse league that no body outside scotland cares about.

I'm not been mean, i'm just telling you how it is, i have never heard anyone say, can't wait to see Hearts v Celtic, it would more like who cares? ands there is the reason you get such a little money, Sky is a business they about making money, if the scottish league was more attractive and made money they would put more in, but they don't and that should tell you everything Sky is not a english company ..even though i think you think that's the reason.

#The money sky puts into football while obscene is based on business and business only, so everyone gets what the market dictates.

 

[Nemeses]

Is this still the transfer rumours or who has the biggest...club?....snip

Er yes cause the money you make dictates what you can buy/spend ( i say this with tongue in cheek ofc

 

[Robbo]

fwiw worth i agree the 2 big teams in scotland should join at the lowest level and work there way up thru the leagues, however with sky dictating what happens along with the english FA worried about its standing in world football it was nor ever will happen. unfortunately the 2 glasgow clubs could and given the riches of english football would more than likely rule english/british football after a short bedding in period and that is something that no english football official/club/fan would never allow despite the fact that it would enhance the league and national team

You think if the Glasgow clubs had the Premier League money they'd rule British football? Absolutely no chance.

 

[Robbo]

Worthy of a discussion I think, moved from the transfers thread.

 

[slipperydave]

You think if the Glasgow clubs had the Premier League money they'd rule British football? Absolutely no chance.

They'd both compete though, quite easily. They've both got massive support, huge grounds and a lot of heritage. What they both lack is money. Stick them in the PL and they'd thrive.

 

[Nemeses]

You think if the Glasgow clubs had the Premier League money they'd rule British football? Absolutely no chance.

Agreed, and if they wanted to join at tier 22 I highly doubt they would be prevented, but then at best it would take 23 years before you appeared in the prem.

They'd both compete though, quite easily. They've both got massive support, huge grounds and a lot of heritage. What they both lack is money. Stick them in the PL and they'd thrive.

I love how Scots think they deserve to be in the top English league, never mind all the clubs that have been playing here for 100+ years, they don't count ..and i do believe as they stand now they would drop out the top 2 leagues before they recovered, they would not compete at PL or EPL levels.

I think the SFL failure is another thing they blame the English for, crazy!

 

[slipperydave]

I love how Scots think they deserve to be in the top English league, never mind all the clubs that have been playing here for 100+ years, they don't count ..and i do believe as they stand how they would drop out the top 2 leagues before they recovered, they would not compete at PL or EPL levels.

I think the SFL failure is another thing they blame the English for, crazy!

Well listen chief, I'm English. I was answering the question posed (you know, it's at the top and is in the thread's title....."how well would Scottish teams do in the Premier League?".

You carry on your little rant though.

 

[Nemeses]

Well listen chief, I'm English. I was answering the question posed (you know, it's at the top and is in the thread's title....."how well would Scottish teams do in the Premier League?".

You carry on your little rant though.

wow really was not meant like that, my point was they would not compete, it would take years to build up to prem league standards.

And maybe not you but most Scots who i have ever heard this discussion from DO BELIEVE they should just be allowed to join the prem.

 

[MissChief]

What defines a big club? History? How far back do we go? Premier League only? Further? What about money? Are Man City a big club given that they've only become successful recently thanks to Arab money. Does that make them small? Middle of the road? What about Spurs and Liverpool? Because they finished above United last season does that make them bigger? It's an extremely difficult question to quantify and answer accurately, not least because some fans, understandably, have a higher opinion of their own club, have a lower than average option of their rivals and often say things to get a rise out of others. In fact it's not just difficult, it's next to impossible!

 

[Nemeses]

Numbers define a big or small club, and i would guess a professional body like forbes would come up with the best formula to determine whats a big club.

1)History does not make you a big club
2)Lots of success will make you a big club.
3)Man city unlike Chelsea have paid their dues over the years so i don't begrudge them the cash they spend now, although i do think clubs like them could be the ruin of football

Fans opinions do not change the numbers, so it based on that.

Based on Turnover
Deloitte has once again released its Football Money League,
1. Manchester United
2. Barcelona
3. Real Madrid
4. Bayern Munich
5. Manchester City (figures not so trustworthy as they ***** by the owners)
6. Paris St-Germain
7. Arsenal
8. Chelsea
9. Liverpool
10. Juventus
12. Tottenham
18. West Ham
20. Leicester (one season blip me thinks)

Based on value Forbes' list of the most valuable football clubs
Position Clubs Bottom value Mid-point Top
1 Manchester United €3,004m €3,095m €3,186m
2 Real Madrid €2,895m €2,976m €3,057m
3 Barcelona €2,688m €2,765m €2,843m
4 Bayern Munich €2,367m €2,445m €2,523m
5 Manchester City €1,909m €1,979m €2,049m
6 Arsenal €1,882m €1,956m €2,029m
7 Chelsea €1,524m €1,599m €1,674m
8 Liverpool €1,260m €1,330m €1,400m
9 Juventus €1,158m €1,218m €1,277m
10 Tottenham Hotspur €978m €1,011m €1,044m
16 Leicester City €442m €462m €482m
17 Everton €431m €457m €483m