What if God evolved?
- Thread starter ben_j_davis
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Well of course it would but mere platitudes hardly excuse the kind of vengeance a supposedly loving God wrought upon helpless human beings, his own creation, and one whose flaws were his own.vonhelmet said:
1. How do you know what knowledge I have?vonhelmet said:
2. Why are you in this thread then?
So who made God then and what was he doing before he made the earth and what was he doing before he did that and do all the little animals go to heaven as well? I'm sure the answers can all be interpreted in some way from some vague stories in the bible somewhere. But tbh the evidence doesnt look too good, the earth is 4.5 billion years old what the ... was god doing for all this time. Don't tell me, he was busy on an earlier experiment somewhere else in the universe.
We believe in religion to help us with our insecurities and to avoid getting murdered by religious maniacs or to make sure we are at least on one side or the other.
We believe in religion to help us with our insecurities and to avoid getting murdered by religious maniacs or to make sure we are at least on one side or the other.
phykell said:
As I said earlier, God's primary characteristic is holiness, not love.
phykell said:
1. Clearly you don't understand God's holiness, or you wouldn't ask the questions you do.
2. Well, I saw a point to it up until recently. Except now I'm back... So maybe there is still a point. I guess I just get tired of it when it becomes even clearer than usual that no one actually has any intention of changing their minds (myself included).
Slam62 said:
No one made God. If they had, he wouldn't be God.
God is outside time, so it's really irrelevant to talk in terms of "before" with God.
Animals don't go to heaven.
Who cares if the earth is 4.5 billion years old? Why should that render God non-existent? That's the worst anti-God argument I've ever heard, and I've heard some pretty bad ones.
Slam62 said:
No, we don't. Perhaps you would, if you did, but I for one don't, and I don't know anyone who does.
Soldato
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vonhelmet said:
Your either in or out
Soldato
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vonhelmet said:
Doesn't this conflict with the acocunt of the creation in Genesis though and the timeline line of Man according to the bible?
mrk1@1 said:
Only if you take the word of random scholars studying the Bible trying to squeeze numbers in where they were never put and figuring things out with no real information to go on.
It's speculation really. This was dealt with a few pages back.
So "holiness" excuses what would be called crimes against humanity if humans committed such barbaric atrocities?vonhelmet said:
1. I sense a theme. I say something and you just dismiss my opinion with the claim that I don't understand God's "holiness"...vonhelmet said:
2. Avoid 1. and we can discuss it reasonably
The fact is that everything I've said is in this thread is to underline the fact that I don't *choose* not to believe, I simply can't believe. The God described in the OT just doesn't make sense to me. There are some great stories, some important messages and of course there is morality in the Bible if you know where to look.
I have to say through all of this its clear that people have their own views and beliefs which (if viewed stronlgy enough) you wont sway from, so the argument in seven pages has been comprehensively a complete waste of time and has worn out many keys on many peoples keyboards . That said, I feel the following is fair:-
Those who believe in God do so because they believe its right, (rightly or wrongly) from what they are taught, and accept (rightly or wrongly) that God sent his son (assuming Jesus) to die for our sins.
Those who dont believe in God / a god do so because they find a lot of the Bible distrurbing and view God as inhumane, a sort of, my way or the highway approach.
We have Combat Squirell who says he is an Athiest (which in itself is a form of religion) viewed as a 'belief' that there is no God / god of any sort, but he then states
We have come to the conclusion that we cannot proove if God does or does not exist, although if we were to research hard enough, we would find even creditable scientists that think there is a 'creator' / 'designer' to the World et al.
Combat Squirell also goes on to say:
If we can say here that kind deed stories 'apparently' happened, by the same strike, we can therefore assume that the mass murders, rape, and genocide God inflicted could also have 'apparently' happened.
You cannot say all the bad things happened and all the good deeds 'may' have happened. They either both happened or they didn't, and if the belief in the good deeds is not relative to the belief of all the bad things, then this argument is nullified.
What is fair to say is that we will always disagree on topics such us this on internet forums and you'll never pull the other party around to your way of thinking, but you can provide open and useful debate, but I fear now we are just going round in circles.
God bless
. That said, I feel the following is fair:-Those who believe in God do so because they believe its right, (rightly or wrongly) from what they are taught, and accept (rightly or wrongly) that God sent his son (assuming Jesus) to die for our sins.
Those who dont believe in God / a god do so because they find a lot of the Bible distrurbing and view God as inhumane, a sort of, my way or the highway approach.
We have Combat Squirell who says he is an Athiest (which in itself is a form of religion) viewed as a 'belief' that there is no God / god of any sort, but he then states
which shows he his 'at best' a weak atheist.
We have come to the conclusion that we cannot proove if God does or does not exist, although if we were to research hard enough, we would find even creditable scientists that think there is a 'creator' / 'designer' to the World et al.
Combat Squirell also goes on to say:
If we can say here that kind deed stories 'apparently' happened, by the same strike, we can therefore assume that the mass murders, rape, and genocide God inflicted could also have 'apparently' happened.
You cannot say all the bad things happened and all the good deeds 'may' have happened. They either both happened or they didn't, and if the belief in the good deeds is not relative to the belief of all the bad things, then this argument is nullified.
What is fair to say is that we will always disagree on topics such us this on internet forums and you'll never pull the other party around to your way of thinking, but you can provide open and useful debate, but I fear now we are just going round in circles.
God bless
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Don't kid yourself. There are many more reasons than that not to believe in God.Faithless said:
We're not going round in circles at all, dead-end alleys would be a more fitting metaphor but then we are talking about religion which is ultimately explained by the faithful as needing to have faith and if you don't you will simply never understand. I've been told that God's inhumanity towards his creation can be explained by his "holiness" but isn't that always the way with these discussions, that the faithful resort to platitudes or the crutch of telling the faithless that they "must have faith", they must "want to believe", they must "open their hearts" and other such (IMO) rubbish.Faithless said:
Soldato
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Faithless said:
Your whole post there was nit picking and based on personal views. Thinking god doesn't exist is based on reproducible evidence, i.e. no one has ever seen any evidence so far to date in human history that he exists, not even you Mr Faithless, if you claimed you have, the media and the whole world would be all over you asking you to prove so
Ill better rephrase that for your understanding ..........to me, killing people, counter acted with 'he did a selfless kind deed' type of story, that apparently happened isn't an excuse for indicating you should be murdering people, or 'making out that' people should be murdered.
See its one or two words that make the difference to someone's point, exactly why the bible is a dangerous book, most likely the worst WMD the world has ever seen, it and along with other religious texts
How does this show 'at best' my arguments for god not existing is weak, it shows im open minded and not stuck in my ways, and a logical clear thinker, nothing as said can ever 100% be proven or disproven, you would be a weak scientist if you thought that this was so. Atheism isn't a form of religion, its a label that says, 'i don't believe in one supreme deity/god', I used the word to quickly get across I don't believe in god, now ill just simply say 'i don't believe in god' as to not label myself
All my arguments for god not existing are apparent to everyone everywhere and anytime, that in itself is good evidence for thinking god doesn't exist, and can be replicated accurately many many many many times over. As said in a previous post im STILL waiting for a GOOD SOLID VALID argument/point to WHY and IF god exists**,NOT a post that pulls words apart and says 'ohhh eer what does this mean' from the other debating party
** A valid point is something that can be reproduced independently of the person making this point, with highly accurate reproducible results, the answer:
'I believe in god because I have faith'
OR
'Now im just not talking about it'
Are NOT valid and good points in proving god exists, they have the same validity as saying 'I believe in flying speggitty toast with tinsel and xmas trees flying around our universe monster because I have faith'
'Now im just not talking about it' is quite clearly a cop out, this is the only other answer to 2 remaining points (when all other points have been 'disproven') said person would have left, the other answer being , 'im wrong', of the 2 'Now im just not talking about it' is preferred. This 'panic' response is usually said in the face of overwhelming evidence and or points that fly in the face of common sense, if person did say something stupid there validity instantly vanishes along with there argument, so to play it safe, 'i believe' and 'im not arguing' is the best possible answers, while trying to retain some sort of dignity.
Of the many 100's of debates I have had on this subject, the above 2 answers are always the ones that end up being given from the 'religious' side of the debate, hence why iv tackled them now
Apologies to anyone who may find the above paragraph a little insulting, its not directed to any member of the forum, its a 'hit the nail on the head' paragraph without tip toeing around things trying to be PC, thankyou
SO basically PLEASE SOMEONE give me a good valid reason other than simply saying something, because its apparently so
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Faithless said:
That's not why I don't believe in a god.
Faithless said:
Atheism is definitely not a religion! It is no "set" of beliefs, it is a rejection of established (and totally unfounded) beliefs due to lack of evidence. The burden of proof surely lies with those that actively believe in something. Dawkins' example is the spinning teapot in space. If I told you it was there, you would expact me to supply the proof. But when it comes to religion, it is the non-believer who must DISprove! Any of you religious people care to justify this?
Maybe you should just "back away" because we're "going round in circles"
No personal nit picking intended CS and theres no need for me to back away, but moving on, lets look at the following:-
Prooving God exists without the use of faith
Can we? Yes
Concept and design necessitate an intelligent designer. The presence of intelligent design proves the existence of an intelligent designer, which is simply cause and effect. In our search for proof of God's existence, we could examine the various claims of supernatural occurrences, determine whether or not these are legitimate experiences, and build a case for the existence of the supernatural, which would be a step towards identifying a supernatural Creator God. Or we can just apply what we already know and search for signs of intelligent design within creation itself.
In accordance with our familiar axiom and in light of the advances we've made in molecular biology, biochemistry, and genetics, the proof of God (a god) is all around us!
In addition, things cant evolve (why dont monkies and chimps still evolve?), even the slightest alteration to a molecule in an atam would cause it to be nullified, therefore can we assume it must have been created whole rather than evolved?
Does God exist?
He either does, or he doesnt. God may not be provable through mathematical formulae or properties of science, but the evidence of an Intelligent Designer is clearly all around us.
Based on our knowledge today, I believe that atheism is a much bigger leap of faith than theism.
So Combat Squirrel is indeed 'Agnostic', not an Atheist, which, is a move in the right direction.
To the other posters in this thread who drone on about a God full of hate, who promotes murder, rape, genocide, etc, the following may be a useful read, and rather than just quoting the reference (assuming you are unlikely to have a Bible) I'll quote the entire passage
Romans 1 v18-32
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
That clearly somes up a clear and concise argument in my opinion.
Prooving God exists without the use of faith
Can we? Yes
Concept and design necessitate an intelligent designer. The presence of intelligent design proves the existence of an intelligent designer, which is simply cause and effect. In our search for proof of God's existence, we could examine the various claims of supernatural occurrences, determine whether or not these are legitimate experiences, and build a case for the existence of the supernatural, which would be a step towards identifying a supernatural Creator God. Or we can just apply what we already know and search for signs of intelligent design within creation itself.
In accordance with our familiar axiom and in light of the advances we've made in molecular biology, biochemistry, and genetics, the proof of God (a god) is all around us!
In addition, things cant evolve (why dont monkies and chimps still evolve?), even the slightest alteration to a molecule in an atam would cause it to be nullified, therefore can we assume it must have been created whole rather than evolved?
Does God exist?
He either does, or he doesnt. God may not be provable through mathematical formulae or properties of science, but the evidence of an Intelligent Designer is clearly all around us.
Based on our knowledge today, I believe that atheism is a much bigger leap of faith than theism.
So Combat Squirrel is indeed 'Agnostic', not an Atheist, which, is a move in the right direction.
To the other posters in this thread who drone on about a God full of hate, who promotes murder, rape, genocide, etc, the following may be a useful read, and rather than just quoting the reference (assuming you are unlikely to have a Bible) I'll quote the entire passage
Romans 1 v18-32
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
That clearly somes up a clear and concise argument in my opinion.
LOL. All animals are continuing to evolve, but it's a slow process. It doesn't happen quickly. Animals pass on their genetic material, per generation, and the changes are subtle and can take hundreds of thousands of years.
You are correct except for the huge mistake in your preconceptions. Concept and design do NOT require an outside intelligence that both define the concepts and create forms to satisfy those concepts. Complexity can and does arise from simple steps. BTW this statement is not based on faith or a requirement to comply with rules defined without reference to the real world, it arises from observation of reality.Faithless said:
So allowing for your mistakes we can correct your answer to read:
Can we? No err oops
Just remember the next time you have a bacterial infection ask for penicillin. DO NOT accept any of these new fangled antibiotics that are now used to fight strains that have evolved resistance to penicillin, these are just lies told to you by godless commie doctors beholden to the huge wealth of the satanic industrial complex that is Big Pharma. Accept no alternative true chrisitians only use penicillin.
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Soldato
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Faithless said:
Can I have some of that stuff you is smoking?
Your whole post was a load of made up stuff with no basis in reality (like that book, eeer the bible?), people have already replied with enough of that common sense stuff for you to see what nonsense you wrote, again..........im still waiting for a VALID sensible argument, not questions like 'why arnt monkeys evolving' find gear, engage, start brain
Sleepy said:
Tears, again comedy genius, this thread is the thread that has made me LOL and cry with laugher most on these very forums