What is a life worth?

Soldato
Joined
1 Nov 2005
Posts
5,709
Just seen this on a local news site, the guy was riding a 400cc motorbike and was essentially killed by an officer doing a u-turn, she pleaded not guilty. The claim by other officers that he was doing 100mph smells a tad..

http://www.nwemail.co.uk/News/Barro...uvre--41907a48-a821-42b9-b9c8-d12d4850b3a3-ds

Anyway, this is the sentence, what are your thoughts?

180 hours of unpaid work, banned from driving for a year and £2,800 costs.

Does working in the force give you some leeway in court? I've not looked at other cases but this seems to be a bit lenient to me, sure I've read about people being jailed under similar circumstances?
 
Caporegime
Joined
30 Jun 2007
Posts
68,784
Location
Wales
There was the police officer who was on her mobile phone and killed a biker got nothing.

There was the officer who was involved in a very high speed crash while "testing" their new car got nothing.

There was another recorded doing insane speeds in her new car but that's OK as he was "testing it"

Basically if your a traffic officer and you murder someone on the road through dangerous, careless or reckless driving you get a slap on the wrist at worst
 
Soldato
Joined
13 Jan 2004
Posts
20,959
Not enough information in the article. It's clearly only picking out the more interesting parts of the case to report on.

There seems to be very little focused on the conduct of the rider, which appears to be the reason he was of interest in the first place.

But hey that's a moot point. Clearly the thread is focusing on whether a serving officer gets treated differently or not in court, the actual facts of the matter make no odds in such a discussion. Why is this in Biker's Cafe? Take it to Speakers Corner.
 
Caporegime
Joined
30 Jun 2007
Posts
68,784
Location
Wales
Not enough information in the article. It's clearly only picking out the more interesting parts of the case to report on.

There seems to be very little focused on the conduct of the rider, which appears to be the reason he was of interest in the first place.



He wasn't of interest though. The van was just turning around unsafe a cording to another police officer.

The motorcycle wasn't being chased or anything like that.
 
Caporegime
Joined
30 Jun 2007
Posts
68,784
Location
Wales
Not enough information in the article. It's clearly only picking out the more interesting parts of the case to report on.

There seems to be very little focused on the conduct of the rider, which appears to be the reason he was of interest in the first place.

But hey that's a moot point. Clearly the thread is focusing on whether a serving officer gets treated differently or not in court, the actual facts of the matter make no odds in such a discussion. Why is this in Biker's Cafe? Take it to Speakers Corner.

"In my opinion, obviously I have done a lot of reconstruction having sat in that van at that layby, then no, it is not safe to carry out that manoeuvre," said PC Irving.*"

^ can you get a more qualified opinion than the crash investigator who has actually gone and done recreations of the incident?
 
Soldato
Joined
13 Jan 2004
Posts
20,959
He wasn't of interest though. The van was just turning around unsafe a cording to another police officer.

The motorcycle wasn't being chased or anything like that.

Where have you got this information from.

I'm not going to comment on the safeness, unsafeness or otherwise with the little information presented in the article. The expert opinion of an AI will be weighed by the courts as just that - An expert opinion.

But as I have clarified - That's not why the OP has made the thread. Other than the incident involving a motorcyclist I have no idea why it is posted here? He wants to discuss his opinion of leniancy of the courts on a serving officer. How is that related to motorbikes?
 
Last edited:
Caporegime
Joined
30 Jun 2007
Posts
68,784
Location
Wales
Where have you got this information from.

I'm not going to comment on the safe, unsafeness or otherwise with the little information presented in the article. But as I have clarified - That;s not why they OP has made the thread. Other than the incident involving a motorcyclist I have no idea why it is posted here? He wants to discuss his opinion of leniancy of the courts on a serving officer. How is that related to motorbikes?

The article? The eye witness, the crash investigators statement, the fact she was found guilty of death by careless driving?

where Di you get the idea he was being chased?
 
Soldato
Joined
13 Jan 2004
Posts
20,959
Where did I say he was being chased? I said he was clearly of interest, the fact multiple witnesses had concerns about his speed and riding. Being of interest does not mean being chased. You don't do an estimated 70-80mph in a 40mph and then get seen at an estimated 100mph and NOT be of interest. Even if he was not of interest, his riding has been of a 'quality' (or lack thereof) to attract the wrong attention.

The crash investigator will investigate the facts of the collision, they were in no way involved on the evening in question.

But, again, for the third time - The OP wants to discuss his perception of court leniency. Not a topic for Biker's Cafe.
 
Last edited:
Soldato
OP
Joined
1 Nov 2005
Posts
5,709
The thread isn't about police getting lenient treatment is about what a biker's life is worth, though yes I did question if it was lenient because of her job.

The officer claims to never have seen the biker until he was lying on the floor. There are a few more reports with more info on that site and a few others.

I'm a biker and posted it here because it made me wonder what protection we have with regard to being killed, there doesn't seem to be much deterrent and this kind of article doesn't send out a good message with regard to being safe on the road. I didn't post in GD because it would just turn in to the typical biker hate thread.
 
Soldato
Joined
13 Jan 2004
Posts
20,959
The answer to your question has already been 'answered' by the only authority that can answer it. The courts. I say 'answered' because a court sentence never sets out to put a monetary or otherwise value on a life, that's a ridiculous proposition. I really cannot fathom what you are trying to get at. Deterrent? What?! People do not go out and intentionally look to kill other road users with their mistakes.

She has killed someone, been on trial and sentenced. You think a harsher sentence would have changed anything? Even if she got 5 years of jail time, a 3 year ban and the £2,800 costs it's not going to change anything.

People will still make mistakes on the road. If you think a court sentence is going to offer you any sort of protection you need to take a step back and have a long hard think. It's a crappy situation for the dead biker, his family, the officer, her family, her constabulary and the force in general.



You open the post with insinuation an officer's testament of 100mph is a lie or embellished. The only questions you ask are on the topic of your opinion of leniency towards the police and that other cases would have seen custodial sentences (Despite your own admission of no research) There is no content in your post beyond the actual title that touches on the topic of "a lifes worth" It's no wonder we have no idea what you are getting it.


Posing the question "What is a biker's life worth" just makes me rage in itself. It's pretentious and the sort of thing I would expect to read in a DailyMail headline. It's worth no more and no less than anyone else.
 
Last edited:
Soldato
OP
Joined
1 Nov 2005
Posts
5,709
Courts do issue punishments to deter others. Vehicles are legal weapons which far too few people understand until it's too late. As a biker I rage when I see my life flash before me due to the laid back attitude of others, not sure why you're having a rage but each to their own.

If there is evidence that the biker was riding at a sensible speed when the accident happened and the accident was caused because the officer did a dangerous u-turn and t-boned the biker what relevance does pervious speed have? To me it just smells a bit funny..

It's not really a daily mail headline is it.. If your life was taken would your family say 5 weeks unpaid work, a 1 year driving ban and 2.8k was just? Life is worth more than that, in my opinion. After a few brief web searches it seems that sentences handed out vary quite a lot but most instances are the usual 'sorry mate I didn't see you' while pulling out of a junction. I saw a helicopter rescue type program a few weeks ago and was shocked to see that pulled out on a biker and very nearly killed them got nothing more than 3 points on their licence, the same as you'd get for eating a cookie at the traffic lights..
 
Soldato
Joined
13 Nov 2003
Posts
5,671
Location
Harrogate
I'd say the sentence is lenient. There should be a mandatory custodial sentence for proven death by dangerous driving and TV campaigns about the consequences, same as there are for drink driving.

That said, I wouldn't say the police get special treatment as there are plenty of cases of civilians killing bikers and cyclists that get similar sentences.
 
Caporegime
Joined
11 Jul 2009
Posts
27,049
Location
BenefitStreetBirmingham
You killed somebody and all you get is a ban and a fine? Pathetic,same as that bin lorry driver

And being a copper does give you special treatment in the eyes of the law/punishment IMO,they seem to get far less harsh sentences than the average joe
 
Caporegime
Joined
30 Jun 2007
Posts
68,784
Location
Wales
Where did I say he was being chased? I said he was clearly of interest, the fact multiple witnesses had concerns about his speed and riding. Being of interest does not mean being chased. You don't do an estimated 70-80mph in a 40mph and then get seen at an estimated 100mph and NOT be of interest. Even if he was not of interest, his riding has been of a 'quality' (or lack thereof) to attract the wrong attention.

The crash investigator will investigate the facts of the collision, they were in no way involved on the evening in question.

But, again, for the third time - The OP wants to discuss his perception of court leniency. Not a topic for Biker's Cafe.



The witness said he was doing a reasonable speed the only people who said he was speeding were the police officer who killed him and her colugees at the time.
 
Soldato
Joined
19 Jun 2012
Posts
5,293
According to the CPS, a 5 year custodial sentence is possible for causing death by careless or inconsiderate driving, and one key mitigating factor is:

  • The actions of the victim or a third party contributed to the commission of the offence

IE if the judge took the testimony of Police officers as true regarding this man speeding, this is probably why she avoided jail.

That said, I think in this instance the decision to perform a U turn in a van (notorious for blind spots) on a busy road at night with a blind bend behind her* could be reasonably construed as dangerous not simply careless.

*If she did it where I think she did it, just after the entrance to a 40MPH zone (from a 60MPH zone) where there is quite a blind bend just before the bus stop layby.

Like it or not, the word of a Police officer will almost always carry more weight than that of a civilian, and in many cases rightly so - particularly where speed is concerned because the average civilian bystander has absolutely no idea how fast vehicles are going and this is has been shown many times in tests. When my father was almost killed other road users were coming out with increadibly inflated speeds 80,90,100 MPH!! When in actual fact the Police crash investigators decided he was doing approximately 45MPH in a 60 zone.

The investigation team should have been able to approximate the bikers speed in their investigation, and I find it very interesting that information is completely omitted from all of the articles I have read so far, other than a parting shot on the BBC website "During the trial, the jury was told Mr Gibson was probably speeding at the time of the crash"

Given it is a 60 down to a 40 and given where I believe the accident happened the blind bend is probably only 100 yards back from the layby, I would hazard a guess that the judge felt there was credibility to the suggestion of the biker not being there when she checked and BAM! being there all of a sudden (due to speeding).

As with many road traffic incidents, I think it is often the result of mistakes by more than 1 party. That is of little consolation to the bikers family, but unfortunately it is true. For example the biker that was killed where a car pulled across him on a junction. The car driver made a monumental mistake, but the biker was not entirely innocent as he was going far too fast for the situation.

I feel sorry for all of those involved because I genuinely believe this Police officer made a genuine error in judgement that was fatally compounded by the additional error in judgement of the biker.

So whilst you cannot put a price on life, there are mitigating circumstances and I believe the damage done to this officers reputation, careeer, finances and future prospects will be enough punishment (along with her own remorse, because I can guarantee she is a decent human being and this incident will be keeping her up at night).

I think the judge has hit the nail on the head, it is a human tragedy for all concerned.
 
Caporegime
Joined
11 Jul 2009
Posts
27,049
Location
BenefitStreetBirmingham
Based on the stories I read about often in the papers

One was speeding on the motorway above 100mph and he got a slap on the wrist

There's always do gooders that try and defend them though

Doesn't matter who it is a jail term should be the minimum
 
Last edited:
Caporegime
Joined
30 Jun 2007
Posts
68,784
Location
Wales
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...an-escapes-prosecution-mobile-phone--lap.html


think that would have made it to court if she wasn't a police officer...




Despite a police investigator saying that Collette Carpenter ‘very likely contributed’ to the accident, the Crown Prosecution Service said there was no evidence she had committed an offence because the phone was on her lap and set to loudspeaker.

Miss Carpenter, 23, a special constable who has handed out at least six fixed penalty fines to motorists for using their mobile phones while driving, was talking to girlfriend Rosemary Bonny when she drove into the path of David Bartholomew’s motorcycle, an inquest heard.

The father of two died hours later of horrific head injuries and multiple fractures.

When interviewed by police, Miss Carpenter repeatedly lied and said she was not on her phone.

She later said she briefly took a call before admitting she had been on the phone for the entire journey, but had had it on the loudspeaker in her lap.

i thought that was called perverting the course of justice or perjury or some such?
 
Back
Top Bottom