What is the point in modern art

Silly thing is that there is a fairly decent explanation in the video posted by @Diddums in post #3

The argument "well you're talking about it" doesn't refute the points made in the video, the argument of why aren't you making millions then if it is easy etc.. just completely misses the point that a lot of the value attributed to the work isn't derived from the work itself but from the fact it was created by a certain person and has been approved of by certain galleries/collectors etc...

I don't think anyone is arguing that all abstract works or art are worthless or that everything "modern art" is stupid - but there are quite reasonable arguments along the lines of "the emperor has no clothes" when it comes to some pieces and there is certainly an argument (already laid out in the video) for why some pieces are worth millions and others aren't.

You can test aspects of this stuff too:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19010423

Using the same database of artworks, we randomly labelled images as being either sourced from a gallery or computer generated. Subjects' aesthetic ratings were significantly higher for stimuli viewed in the 'gallery' than 'computer' contexts. This contextual modulation correlated with activity in the medial orbitofrontal cortex and prefrontal cortex, whereas the context, independent of aesthetic value, correlated with bilateral activations of temporal pole and bilateral entorhinal cortex. This shows that prefrontal and orbitofrontal cortices recruited by aesthetic judgments are significantly biased by subjects' prior expectations about the likely hedonic value of stimuli according to their source.

This is perhaps why the likes of Banksy can sell art for $60 in NYC without someone running to the bank and handing over a big wad of cash for the entire stall - most of the value of his work these days isn't derived directly from the work itself but from it becoming apparent that Banksy made it rather than some nameless graffiti artist who hasn't built up and benefitted from years of publicity, publicity stunts and a name known worldwide. Not that I'm knocking Banksy, I quite like his stuff and it is a far cry from throwing some glitter on the floor - it, like other art, still benefits from hype but that has at least perhaps been generated a bit more organically rather than the more abstract stuff mentioned in the OP which has relied on a select few insiders approving of it.

I'm not saying the likes of Hurst etc.. have no talent at all, there was perhaps some necessary amount of talent required in order to get into art college in the first place but when they're creating things that are so abstract then there isn't really much to discern between their work and pretty much any other art student who wants to create such pieces. Their success hasn't come from some organically generated widespread appeal but more from the likes of Saatchi buying up and promoting their work - it isn't really much to do with the art by that point - a dog turd can have value because some prominent collector says it has value and some galleries will promote it and then some other collectors will notice it and so on... it can all be achieved with relatively few people in the process - this is where luck perhaps has the biggest impact as they're almost entirely reliant on it. Once they've got that name then they have some momentum behind them and can carry on producing pretty much whatever they want and as it is abstract there isn't necessarily much skill required - in fact often they don't even need to get their hands dirty at all - their assistants can produce the "art" and they can just come up with the high level concept/idea etc.. which can be literally anything they want as they're now [big name artist] and [big name collector] bought some of their stuff and [big name galleries] regularly display it.
 
I don't think anyone is arguing that all abstract works or art are worthless or that everything "modern art" is stupid - but there are quite reasonable arguments along the lines of "the emperor has no clothes" when it comes to some pieces and there is certainly an argument (already laid out in the video) for why some pieces are worth millions and others aren't.

Great post. I just wanted to emphasize in the above that abstract art =/= Modern Art. I posted some examples of abstract art myself that I liked earlier. I don't know that a Rothko should be £16m, mind you, but it's nice to have on your wall. Modern Art, aka an unmade bed or a bicycle against a wall, are in a whole different category. I know you know, but people conflate the two because there are things that straddle the border and have a foot in both camps (like a Jackson Pollack).
 
If I was gonna spend massive coin on art, it'd be Salvador Dali.

I remember an interview with Dali and he was talking about what he wanted from his art. "Money! A huge diarrhoea of money!" It was even funnier with the accent and the moustache. Guy had talent, though! :)
 
I remember an interview with Dali and he was talking about what he wanted from his art. "Money! A huge diarrhoea of money!" It was even funnier with the accent and the moustache. Guy had talent, though! :)

He was an absolute nutter, and judged by today's standards he'd probably be locked up for his racism and outspoken attitude but his art was always amazing. I remember going to his museum when I was about 12-13 and seeing on many occasions the exact same paintings twice on a walkthrough of the museum. It was only right at the end that we realised the paintings were slightly different and by mounting them a 90deg angles with a 90deg mirror in the middle, you could place your nose on the spine of the mirror so each eye saw a different painting, it made the paintings appear in 3D. Amazing stuff now, let alone back then.

Andy Warhol paints a few stripes and boom, millions. Makes no sense.
 
‘Marketing’ does this all the time though, not just with modern art. ‘Value’ is added to objects and experiences through the power of marketing that goes well beyond the core utility and/or the worth of the raw materials that form said objects.

It seems your issue is with marketing rather than modern art.

Partly but not entirely. My issue is with pretending there's some Hidden Special Thing that only Special People can understand. Modern art is exactly the same thing as the fable of the emperor's new clothes. Same idea, same method, same purpose. Just more successful.

With other objects that have their "value" vastly inflated by skilled marketing, there is at least an object. With modern art, there is nothing because the object itself is worthless and everyone knows it. An unmade bed is an unmade bed - there are many millions of them and only one is valuable "art". Not because it's different to the others but because it has been successfully marketed.
 
I was a Tate member for many years and loved attending exhibitions and still enjoy art in it's many forms to this day. I have always been singularly unimpressed by concept art and many modern installations. I have an engineers respect for craftsmanship and concept without craft always struck me a balderdash. I saw the poo making machine, a gajillion fake sunflower seeds, a machine that chipped some fellas belongings and massive pile of tiny cut out paper men. Not one of them would inspire me or hold my attention for a fraction of the time of a Pre-Raphalite, a De Lempicka, Lowry, Gaugin, Henry Moore, Howgarth or Dali. The walls of my house are covered in prints and originals and old maps, I have a few nice pieces of hand made glass, pottery and woodwork and even they have more substantial beauty than much of what I have seen in the installation rooms at Tate Modern. The turbine hall itself however is a thing of beauty, shame they ruined the boiler house by removing the range boilers and chain grates. I'm not totally down on modern art but I do like to see some craft involved.
 
With other objects that have their "value" vastly inflated by skilled marketing, there is at least an object. With modern art, there is nothing because the object itself is worthless and everyone knows it. An unmade bed is an unmade bed - there are many millions of them and only one is valuable "art". Not because it's different to the others but because it has been successfully marketed.

Eloquently put.
 
The fact that this unmade bed is so divisive (which I think is a pile of dirty sheets), it makes its existence worthwhile. I've said before, the worst thing that can happen to a piece of art, any piece of art is that it is forgotten. The fact that so many people remembers is, for whatever the reason, must make the artist soooooo happy. It was worth making it in the first place.
 
my dog had explosive diarrhea earlier wife wouldnt let me frame it and stick it on ebay :(
 
Partly but not entirely. My issue is with pretending there's some Hidden Special Thing that only Special People can understand. Modern art is exactly the same thing as the fable of the emperor's new clothes. Same idea, same method, same purpose. Just more successful.

With other objects that have their "value" vastly inflated by skilled marketing, there is at least an object. With modern art, there is nothing because the object itself is worthless and everyone knows it. An unmade bed is an unmade bed - there are many millions of them and only one is valuable "art". Not because it's different to the others but because it has been successfully marketed.

Eloquently put.

I totally get where you're coming from but doesn't that apply to all art, not just Modern art? Works of art have no inherent utility or value (unless they are made from precious metals). Whereas (as you say) almost everything else that marketing is applied to has utility.

I think if the artwork is a representation of a figure, landscape or still life, people can easily think 'I know what the artist was trying to represent here'. Abstract art, and by extension Modern art, is less literal, so it's harder to make the connection, especially if you're logically minded.

So the goal is attention seeking?

*This is my reply to the question in the thread title, as well as a direct response to you dowie.*

Since Humans have lived in caves we have created art to tell stories, understand the world around us and attempt to understand ourselves. I think that with technological advances in photography and video, certain artists moved away from representing the literal world around them and started to use more abstract methods of exploration. We see this across most disciplines including painting, sculpture, ceramics and textiles. Modern art is just an extension of this process, abstracting the abstract. The goal of 'art' hasn't changed, artists are still telling stories, trying to understand the world around them and trying to understand the human condition, Modern artists are just doing it differently. It's not really that 'modern' any more though; Marcel Duchamp was creating 'Modern art' 100 years ago. :p
 
The fact that this unmade bed is so divisive (which I think is a pile of dirty sheets), it makes its existence worthwhile. I've said before, the worst thing that can happen to a piece of art, any piece of art is that it is forgotten. The fact that so many people remembers is, for whatever the reason, must make the artist soooooo happy. It was worth making it in the first place.

I like The Bed. It's a self portrait. It's quite simple as a concept but detailed in it's execution. An example of something that's common place, like people are, but unique in it's own way, like people are.

If people don't get it then fine. They should go and enjoy some art that they do and try to appreciate stuff they don't.
 
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No idea whatsoever :/
 
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No idea whatsoever :/

I was in Barcelona, I forgot what gallery and there were 3 canvases on the wall, very large actually, about 2 metres high and about 4 metres wide each. On it is a single line drawn across with a pencil. Reading the description apparently the artist had thought for like 2 years to make that from what i recall.

2 years? for a pencil line? that's weird and WTF comes to mind, still does.

But you can read it literally as it is, a pencil line on a cloth or you can read into the artist's "journey" in order to come-up-with that.

I have to say though, it got my attention and I still remember it 15 years later and I remember nothing else from that gallery.
 
I totally get where you're coming from but doesn't that apply to all art, not just Modern art? Works of art have no inherent utility or value (unless they are made from precious metals). Whereas (as you say) almost everything else that marketing is applied to has utility.

I think this has been covered, although perhaps not explicitly in relation to this question. It doesn't apply to all art because for the most part, art is assigned value by the observer. We see a painting we like and think it has value to us therefore. Now marketing may make us like it more or less because humans are like that. But we still have assigned it value ourselves. For Modern Art, very often (predominantly I would say), the value is entirely the result of marketing. As Angillion says: there are a million unmade beds in this country. Marketing is what made Emin's one suddenly saleable for a fortune. We can deplore the outsourcing of what we like to the appointed arbiters of taste and personally, I think that's worth deploring. But whether you do or not, it marks Modern Art as different. We're not talking about people who might look at a Monet and not like it - that's again a person setting their own tastes. We're talking about something where the liking or disliking is determined by the marketing wholly.

I think if the artwork is a representation of a figure, landscape or still life, people can easily think 'I know what the artist was trying to represent here'. Abstract art, and by extension Modern art, is less literal, so it's harder to make the connection, especially if you're logically minded.

I'm again going to emphasise my point from earlier that Abstract Art =/= Modern Art. I like a lot of abstract art. These are abstract but I like them:


They'd look quite nice on my bookshelf.

A bicycle against a wall? Noooooot so much.

I know there's overlap between Abstract and Modern Art, but the distinction is worth maintaining or this discussion will get very messy.

Since Humans have lived in caves we have created art to tell stories, understand the world around us and attempt to understand ourselves. I think that with technological advances in photography and video, certain artists moved away from representing the literal world around them and started to use more abstract methods of exploration. We see this across most disciplines including painting, sculpture, ceramics and textiles. Modern art is just an extension of this process, abstracting the abstract. The goal of 'art' hasn't changed, artists are still telling stories, trying to understand the world around them and trying to understand the human condition, Modern artists are just doing it differently. It's not really that 'modern' any more though; Marcel Duchamp was creating 'Modern art' 100 years ago. :p

See, I don't see this clear lineage to Modern Art that you do. I see a fracture and a subversion of art. I think we've been able to give clear arguments on that which don't depend on our subjective "I like it / don't like it" personal tastes. And I think we all know we're saying Modern as in the school rather than contemporary. There is beautiful art produced every day. It just doesn't get the coverage Damien Hirst does.
 
I have to say though, it got my attention and I still remember it 15 years later and I remember nothing else from that gallery.
But for the majority of people do they remember it for the artists proclaimed concept or just as "that twaddle they saw at the museum" because I used to visit Tate Britain and modern regularly for exhibitions and then see part of the regular collection and most of the installations I remember as twaddle not for any value in the artists proclaimed idea. And if by chance they are only trying to make memorable twaddle I despair.
 
If people don't get it then fine. They should go and enjoy some art that they do and try to appreciate stuff they don't.

And there it is again. The "you don't get it". The problem is, nor would the people who spend fortunes on this stuff unless they were told to "get it" by critics. And I'd ask anyone who wishes to dispute that to first question whether, honestly, they don't think that's true.
 
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