What makes a game a competitive game?

[Phal]

This is a slight spin-off to the other thread asking for a new game to replace 1.6



People saying this game isnt and that game isnt competitive...

Well I think thats a load of crap. To me, any game can be made competitive. All you need is a bunch of people who play the game and want to compete.




Ill use TF2 as my example since its what Im playing at the moment and people seem to generally think its not good for competitions.

People seem to think that because its got cartoony graphics and crits, it cant be a game worth playing in leagues etc? Why? Apparently the game is a lottery? If thats the case, why do the good players consistantly get to the top of the scoreboard? If thats the case, why do the good clans hammer the less experienced ones?

People dont like crits because there is a certain ammount of luck involved but when it comes down to it, everyone has a fairly even crit chance so it works both ways. Nobody has a real major advantage over the other person.

CS was the same, youd often walk into other peoples bullets... Wasnt that luck? Im sure that well over half of the headshots registered in games are mostly luck... so what makes that different to a crit?

The closest thing I can think of to pure skill is a 1v1 game of something like Quake or UT with railguns. That way theres no spray and no one else to shoot by accident but thats not for everyone.



Yes, TF2 is a lot simpler than TFC was as far as the 1v1 Deathmatch goes... but that only means the teamwork and coordination then becomes more important.

It doesnt matter how simple combat is... a good player will always beat a crap player over time.



Opinions?

 

[Durzel]

Crits do make elements of the game a lottery, but crits don't honestly bother me a great deal because I dish out just as many of them as I get back. Natural skill shines through in TF2, as with pretty much any FPS imo.

I have near zero interest in the sort of "competitive games" the CS1.6 nuts talk about. For me that whole scene is about unrealistic twitch gaming with crappy painting-by-numbers graphics because god forbid they go under 2000fps. That scene seems to breed and attract a certain class of individual who only cares about "pwning" and are generally arrogant and abusive, calling anyone who disagrees noobs or other terms of derision. I find that whole aspect of it unattractive.

Anyway, your last point hit the nail on the head really - a good player will always beat a crap player over time.

 

[Frapple]

This is a slight spin-off to the other thread asking for a new game to replace 1.6

People saying this game (I'm assuming you mean TF2 here) isn't and that game isn't competitive...

Well I think that's a load of crap. To me, any game can be made competitive. All you need is a bunch of people who play the game and want to compete.

Depends on the gameplay mechanics really, some games are a lot more competitive and take a lot more skill that others.

I'll use TF2 as my example since its what I'm playing at the moment and people seem to generally think its not good for competitions.

People seem to think that because its got cartoony graphics and crits, it cant be a game worth playing in leagues etc? Why? Apparently the game is a lottery? If that's the case, why do the good players consistently get to the top of the scoreboard? If that's the case, why do the good clans hammer the less experienced ones?

It is a lottery, the skill of aiming is near enough not needed, the only element to win is waiting for a couple of ubers to charge up before you go in.

Knowing how to handle your character is every situation and on every map comes with time, and does take some skill to master, but that's true with any game. Doing this will get you to the top of the scoreboard easily, with the help of luck.

People don't like crits because there is a certain amount of luck involved but when it comes down to it, everyone has a fairly even crit chance so it works both ways. Nobody has a real major advantage over the other person.

Crit chance has been proven to be very uneven and situational.

CS was the same, you'd often walk into other peoples bullets... Wasn't that luck? I'm sure that well over half of the headshots registered in games are mostly luck... so what makes that different to a crit?

Also, I can't remember many times when I walked into someone else bullets, if they aimed at you and hit you, fair enough, even if it was a through a wall, they meant to shoot through that wall, that was your fault for showing yourself or being behind that wall, and their skill to hit you. They didn't glance at you fire once and kill you because of a lucky crit.

For example, two people see each other good player and bad player.

Good hits bad
Bad misses good
Good hits bad
Bad misses good
Good hits bad and is nearly dead.
Bad crits, kills good.

The skilled player lost because of pure chance. This has happened to me time after time.

The closest thing I can think of to pure skill is a 1v1 game of something like Quake or UT with railguns. That way there's no spray and no one else to shoot by accident but that's not for everyone.

As I said at the beginning, some games require a lot more skill that others.

Yes, TF2 is a lot simpler than TFC was as far as the 1v1 Deathmatch goes... but that only means the teamwork and coordination then becomes more important.

How does 'teamwork and co-ordination' become more important in a 1v1 match.

It doesn't matter how simple combat is... a good player will always beat a crap player over time.

Opinions?

Overtime in a TF2, probably, but if I met a crap player in 1.6, I would have killed him 19 times out of 20, the 1 death becoming over ambitious and trying to knife him.

If TF2 was competitive, it would have a huge competitive scene, which is as far as I'm aware, it doesn't.

It was made to be a fun game on public servers, which it is.

The only replacement for 1.6 I can think of is CoD2 as CoD4 and been made more accessible for consoles and controllers (Read: Dumbed down for those console tards </ignorant assface>) But because CoD2 is dead, looks like we're stuck with 1.6*




*woot!

P.S. I hate to be a grammar nazi, but I think you should look up how to use apostrophes.

Sorry if my reply makes me sound like an ass, I try to remain objective and remain impartital, and I really do like TF2, it's just not suited for competition.

 

[Phal]

Quote:
Yes, TF2 is a lot simpler than TFC was as far as the 1v1 Deathmatch goes... but that only means the teamwork and coordination then becomes more important.

How does 'teamwork and co-ordination' become more important in a 1v1 match.





No, you misread :\ I said that the 1v1 was simpler in TFC than TF2 so that just meant that teamwork and coordination. If you cant just run in and wtfpwn everyone on your own, you need to work together more.





Gameplay mechanics that require more skill? Like what?

In things like CS, I used to pay a lot more attention to my radar and what I could hear etc. Knowing which walls you could shoot through and where people were likely to camp was always very important.

In TF2 you dont have those things but there are always other things to watch and pay attention to.

You said you dont need to aim in TF2? lol well thats a load of crap tbh! If you dont aim then youre not gonna get far.

Waiting for uber charges wont win you the game. Everyone can have an ubercharge... you just have to know when and how to use it.





As for playing against a crap player... well you said youd kill him 19 times before he killed you? Could do the same in TF2 if you were playing against a crap player. I guess I was thinking of a smaller skill gap when I said crap player



Feel free to explain what these gameplay mechanics are that make all the difference!

 

[Phal]

P.S. I hate to be a grammar nazi, but I think you should look up how to use apostrophes.

Sorry if my reply makes me sound like an ass, I try to remain objective and remain impartital, and I really do like TF2, it's just not suited for competition.

And why should I use them? I tend to skip a lot of punctuation online purely because its a pain in the arse to keep adding manually and I dont type my replies into Microsoft Word first like some people do!

You might however want to look up how to spell 'impartial'





and yes, I know it was a typo!

 

[DJammyRasta]

Heh i have been unsucessfully trying to run a TF2 clan over the last few months... but finding decent players who want to be in a clan does seem to be difficult as has been said the game is more casual than cs.. yes skill is important, yes there are some very good players.. but for the most part people play the game to have fun every now and then without havin to think too much or put in too much practice.

I aint played in a few weeks (shows my commitment to the game) but last time i played crits could be turned off with a server mod and i believe they will be able to be turned off with the patch (thats not out yet is it?)

While your chance of getting a crit does increase the better you are doing there is still the chance as Manbread said that a player will get a lucky crit and beat someone they shouldn't have been able to.

Anyway the game is definitely good enough to be competative.. just needs the player base, and removing the ability to uber 3 people at a time would be a good idea too.. and nerf scouts, damn imba barstewards

As for cs.. i cant believe people still play that, surely everyone in the gaming world has played that game to death by now!

 

[Warbie]

After years of RTCW/ET clan gaming (with some CS/CS:S chucked in), I came to TF2 thinking that it was a no skill game. I couldn't have been more wrong.

For a start there are no crits in league matches. Infact, I haven't played a scrim in months that has had crits. Secondly, the game requires an incredible level of situational awareness - more than in anything else i've played at a competitive level - teamplay, and a very decent aim (not Q3 levels, but more so than CS). My only gripe is how reliant success is on having the right classes for each map. Last night we could field a full team, but our regular scouts weren't around. This, coupled with the other team choosing a map that requires 2 scouts, screwed us completely before the match even began. In CS/RTCW (and basicaly any other fps) you can blag your way through this kind of stuff as each role is comparatively similar.

//I didn't mean to go off in such a ramble. I agree with the OP - any game can be competitive - but find some are more involved and suited to this level of play. TF2 is one such game.

 

[Phal]

Hmm well there are leagues that play using crits ( ED and WPTF2L when it gets going ) so its not exactly a standard to not have crits.

I personally like the crits ( mostly ) because it makes for more spectacular game play and sometimes theyre needed to break a rush or something similar. TFC had grenades to supplement damage, TF2 has crits

I know they can be annoying and yes sometimes theyre lucky... but on average, everyone has them so I dont see the problem.

 

[Warbie]

Hmm well there are leagues that play using crits ( ED and WPTF2L when it gets going ) so its not exactly a standard to not have crits

I doubt they'll remain that way. There won't be a top team around that wants to play with crits as, despite the excitement, they do detract from the level of skill and teamplay.

 

[Phal]

Why do they detract from skill and team play? You still need to hit them for the crits to count!

ED has been using crits since the start and the Wireplay League hasnt started yet but everyone is fine about the crits there.

Obviously for splash damage weapons its an advantage but for everything else.

Not sure why people think theyre too pr0 for crits. Its the same pr0 bunch that insist on playing 6v6 instead of anything else for some reason. I personally would prefer 8v8 to be the norm but 6v6 does seem ok for CP maps. Would be rather sucky for CTF maps though because I dont think youd have enough people attacking / defending to make it fun. Then again, the pr0 people only tend to like the official maps so unless they play a lot of 2fort, it probably wouldnt worry them!

 

[4p]

Variation

Good map design

Skillfull thinking

Sound

 

[Warbie]

Why do they detract from skill and team play? You still need to hit them for the crits to count!

I was arguing the same thing 3 or 4 months ago, and do enjoy the occasional public server with crits, but don't like the element of luck that crits introduce. If I kill someone with a crit rocket I don't get any satisfaction at all. It almost feels like cheating. When I get killed by a crit I don't feel like i've been beaten by skill, either, but by chance.

Not sure why people think theyre too pr0 for crits. Its the same pr0 bunch that insist on playing 6v6 instead of anything else for some reason.

It's nothing to do with being pro - it's about wanting a good game.

In 6v6 an entire round could be swung by 1 crit, rather than the side with the better skill and teamplay coming out on top. I also prefer 6v6 (class limit of 2, medic limit 1) as I find more players increase the levels of spamming and luck involved.

 

[Anim]

This whole topic went round and round on the tf2 forums, crits are bad, valve has since released an option to remove crits and the anti-crit players were then right

I'll go in to a LOT more detail if you want but vanilla tf2 for matches is awful, end of.

 

[HangTime]

Here's my viewpoint on what makes for a good competitive FPS game:

-Minimised spawn luck. By which I mean, 'fair' spawns (note this doesn't necessarily mean giving spawning players a powerful weapon or extra health, I'm thinking more about balancing locations so that matches aren't decided so much by initial spawns or spawnfrags).
-Good map design (somewhat subjective, I'm thinking along the lines of having good connectivity with multiple pathways to any given goal and few places where one can hide or turtle). For team games, avoid situations where too many of the best items are located in close proximity to force clans to be more mobile and utilise better comms.
-Consistent hitboxes and accurate weapons - why bring luck into the equation just because it is more 'realistic'?
-Low hardware requirements i.e. everyone can run with high fps
-Speed. There is a common misconception that slow paced games are intrinsically more tactical than faster ones. The only reason for this is because people get more time to think, and because there is less benefit from being multi-faceted in terms of being both good at 'skills' and tactics. At the highest level, fast paced games are just as tactical, the difference is, the number of players who can operate at that fast pace is much smaller. Or in other words, it really helps to seperate the men from the boys, the guys who can bunny round a corner at highspeed, engage multiple opponents, interpret teammsgs and keep track of item timings all at the same time.
-Physics. Tying in with the above, the best games for competition remove all the arbitrary limitations on what the player can do. Let the most skilled movers have the freedom to pull off crazy speed jumps with bags of air control - this helps to steepen the learning curve, and helps to distinguish further between good players and great ones.

 

[Phal]

Well I think crits on or off its just a preferrence or opinion. Some like them and some dont.

Like you said, 1 crit in a 6v6 could turn the game around but then it comes down to your team to deal with it. If people are decent enough, they dont bunch up so 1 crit would only take out 1 person. If youre all bunched up and get taken out by a crit then you were asking for trouble and you got punished for it.

Non crit matches seem to favour the HW/Medic combo because these because a lot harder to kill without crits and I dont necessarily think this is a good thing.

Just because Valve released a patch to add commands to remove crits doesnt mean the anti crit people were right... It just means Valve listened to what people wanted and gave you a means to do what you wanted. Its like Quake 3, look at how many mods there were for different gameplay types. I wouldnt say 1 mod was better than the other... you just play what you like and enjoy.






As for Hangtime's post -

Not sure what you mean by Spawn Luck?

Good maps and consistant hitboxes... yes these are important. Most games have good maps otherwise they dont get played! Hitboxes... well thats never going to be perfect as long as we have internet gameplay. There will always be delays in what you do because of latency and there will always be a certain ammount of packet loss etc. Client prediction will never be perfect. I think those issues are responsible for what a lot of people blame on hitboxes. Because of client side prediction, what you see on your screen isnt necessarily what is actually happening. This is why you often find yourself dead around the corner when you thought you were safe :/ this is why LAN gameplay is better!


Speed and Physics - I dont think it matters how complicated or how simple controls are - there is still skill. Youve only got to look at the Olympics... What could be simpler than jumping as far as you can? or jumping over something high? or throwing something far? Just because something is easy to do or slow doesnt mean it requires less skill to do. There is always room for improvement.

Hardware requirements - well thats a perk and a disadvantage of PC gameplay unfortunately. People want games to look nice and unfortunately this does have an impact on performance etc :/ As long as game makers keep the requirements realistic, I dont have a problem. If your PC cant handle the game then dont play it :\

 

[Warbie]

Well I think crits on or off its just a preferrence or opinion. Some like them and some dont.

Like you said, 1 crit in a 6v6 could turn the game around but then it comes down to your team to deal with it. If people are decent enough, they dont bunch up so 1 crit would only take out 1 person. If youre all bunched up and get taken out by a crit then you were asking for trouble and you got punished for it.

A single lucky crit kill can swing things in 6 v 6. When teams collide, 9/10 the team that loses one or two people first loses the encounter.

I don't think non crit matches favour heavy/medics - they simply increase the need for teamplay. The most important strategy in TF2 is forcing their medic to uber early - be it so his uber will run out before yours, or so they don't have it on the point - while building and protecting yours. After years of clan gaming, having this extra complexity is such a welcome change. On top of the map objectives your have to balance protecting someone, fighting and keeping yourself alive, while also hunting their medic. Beating a h/m combo in this way is great - it's one of the things I like most about TF2. Killing either of them with a lucky crit sucks as they have little chance to recover regardless of how well they play.

 

[devilkazuya]

well ideally, you want no luck involved in something which is taken to a competitive level, but there is always some in most avenues. A game can be considered competitive even is there is a tremendous amount of luck involved...poker being the examplar of this.

I think in terms of something like TF2, where there is more luck involved in it, than say in a Quake game where everything is pure skill, and the closest thing to luck is when someone misses an easy shot on you, I suppose the actual criticism, is that something like TF2 is less of an example of who is the better between two teams at high level, as luck can effect the outcome more. Though ANY game where people are trying to beat oneanother on a more than casual level, is considered competitive in my book.

The people who would say it was not competitive simply aren't explaining what there actual point is, which is that the more luck is involved in a game, the less indicative it is of who was actually better than the other.

 

[Phal]

I think having crits in makes the game more interesting because its less predictable. There might be less skill in the kills you get through crits but I think the skill then shows up in how you deal with the loss of team mates.

If you lose your HW/Medic or more in 1 go, it takes alow of skill to save your team from losing a point then or from losing a flag.

Damage from a crit also doesnt always mean instant death for someone and how you deal with getting knocked down to low health is also important.

I know why people dont like the crits but Id rather just accept them as part of the game which was made and adapt.



As a Demo, getting a direct hit using normal grenades isnt exactly simple either so sometimes I think the crits are deserved it makes the explosions much more satisfying hehe

 

[Warbie]

Much depends on whether you're playing on a packed public server or a 6v6 scrim with class limits. I like crits on a pub - they suit the mass spam and chaos. Teamplay is virtually non existent and a lucky crit gives you a chance to come back against the odds (it's also nice seeing bodies exploding everywhere ). Matches are very different.

 

[Anim]

well ideally, you want no luck involved in something which is taken to a competitive level, but there is always some in most avenues. A game can be considered competitive even is there is a tremendous amount of luck involved...poker being the examplar of this.

I think in terms of something like TF2, where there is more luck involved in it, than say in a Quake game where everything is pure skill, and the closest thing to luck is when someone misses an easy shot on you, I suppose the actual criticism, is that something like TF2 is less of an example of who is the better between two teams at high level, as luck can effect the outcome more. Though ANY game where people are trying to beat oneanother on a more than casual level, is considered competitive in my book.

SO wrong poker and tf2 are completely different scenarios, q4 is different again. In poker the luck can be calculated in as much time as you need to take, theres no real rush on when you take your turn and it relies heavily on skill in the end. In quake 4 you dont get luck, you mentioned luck being someone missing an easy shot on you, thats not luck. Someone missing you is them being bad, its their fault because they didnt move their mouse in the right direction or they didnt take an extra step, luck had nothing to do with it.

TF2 on the other hand has an instant-kill ability that is randomly generated by the server, you cannot predict them and you cannot change your mind about them. If there was a way to control or at least predict when your next crit was then there could possibly be an element of skill but in its current form it is pure unadulterated luck.