What were the advantages in being in the EU?

Poneros · 26 Jun 2016 at 23:48

Don't forget the biggest turnout was for elderly voters, and they overwhelmingly voted to leave. They will die off not much later than when negotiations finish, so they can say '**** you' to the EU (I guess) and not have to live with the consequences for too long.

davewhite04 · 26 Jun 2016 at 23:48

toshj said:
Two things:

1) I'd rather not have to go through all those things, it's a massive pain in the arse and I'm relatively comfortable just now.

2) I have no faith the country has voted for the best option. So not only have I got to reshape my business from scratch, but I've got to do it as a result of a decision I think is sociopolitically flawed.

I'm trying to get through on gallows humour at the moment, but having canvassed my clients, we're in for a really really tough ride with no guarantee of being better off than we were initially. Job losses, austerity, loss of international investment, lack of vital EU infrastructure investment for the regions, etc. all in the hope things might get better. They may, but the risk is so severe and it's not totally reliant on us in the UK - there's a huge impact on is by international bodies, many who don't have our best interests at heart.

1,2

The decision is made, so like the rest of us you have to move on and not fester or resent or blame or hate anything.

I'm not sure as to why you would lose international investment? We are still in the EU, we have the 5th largest economy and we are respected. Why would international investment stop?

I'll believe that when I see it.

Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to it. - C Swindoll.

dowie · 26 Jun 2016 at 23:50

Gigabit said:
In response to thread title: we could influence the laws we were told to follow rather than just follow them which is now going to be the case.

what makes you think that?

Macro · 26 Jun 2016 at 23:53

davewhite04 said:
we have the 5th largest economy and we are respected.

Has it ever occurred to you that might be in part because of our position in the EU? Nope, thought not...

dowie · 26 Jun 2016 at 23:55

Poneros said:
Considering the EU told Switzerland to f off after their referendum and that they won't negotiate without free movement, it's baffling to see people still insisting that somehow UK will get a better deal, when they're members of the EU and for which leaving has even more serious political ramifications (and not only).

well it is quite obvious that various EU members are rather keen to ensure some form of deal is done with the UK and we're not Switzerland, land locked in the middle of it.... we've just voted to leave and don't technically have to do any deal but it would be in both our interests and the EUs that we do come to some arrangement... if free movement is an issue then a compromise could be worked out - I'd suspect that such a compromise will still involve plenty of EU nationals being able to move here and vice versa and EU nationals getting more favorable treatment than nonEU

davewhite04 · 26 Jun 2016 at 23:56

Macro said:
Has it ever occurred to you that might be in part because of our position in the EU? Nope, thought not...

Of course it has, but it works both ways. Think.

Macro · 26 Jun 2016 at 23:59

davewhite04 said:
Of course it has, but it works both ways. Think.

And how's that going to work for you when Scotland leaves the UK and rejoins the EU?

Russinating · 26 Jun 2016 at 23:59

I run a small business employing 5 people (including us two directors). Instantly we lost the opportunity of £50,000, as we had tenders with two councils who receive a significant amount of funding through the EU's European Regional Development Fund. We've worked with one before which received €450m. The fact that those areas also voted Leave - Cornwall and South Wales - is absolutely mind boggling. Anyway, those infrastructure and development funds will be scrapped completely and the projects we tendered for will naturally be canned.

We also have a client who's a UK based tour operator. We've just employed that fifth person to undertake a large part of this contract but they have no idea what's going to happen. If the pound remains weak they may lose customers to UK travel, especially for their North America trips. If this is the case they could well pull part of our contract and if the Brexit only effects 3 of their North America trips we'll lose over £45,000 and likely have to make our new employee redundant.

As you can guess I voted remain and am genuinely worried. I hope I'm wrong but given I lost a lot the second it was announced I can't really see anything offsetting that.

Poneros · 27 Jun 2016 at 00:00

dowie said:
well it is quite obvious that various EU members are rather keen to ensure some form of deal is done with the UK and we're not Switzerland, land locked in the middle of it.... we've just voted to leave and don't technically have to do any deal but it would be in both our interests and the EUs that we do come to some arrangement... if free movement is an issue then a compromise could be worked out - I'd suspect that such a compromise will still involve plenty of EU nationals being able to move here and vice versa and EU nationals getting more favorable treatment than nonEU

So, with the UK voting for an exit, you think it has a better negotiating position on the issue than Switzerland? And you think this position is so good that the EU would be willing to compromise one of the main pillars, if not THE main pillar, of the project, for the UK? Honestly?

toshj · 27 Jun 2016 at 00:02

davewhite04 said:
1,2

The decision is made, so like the rest of us you have to move on and not fester or resent or blame or hate anything.

I'm not sure as to why you would lose international investment? We are still in the EU, we have the 5th largest economy and we are respected. Why would international investment stop?

I'll believe that when I see it.

Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to it. - C Swindoll.

We lose international investment because no sane firm or country is going to make investments in to the country until our path has been agreed upon. At best that might be two years, at worse it could go beyond a decade. No international firm is going to set up offices in London instead of Paris, or Berlin or Milan, as we won't know whether we can trade with EU countries/clients for two years minimum. It's business suicide to establish an office or investment (buying a UK-based firm for example) in the country as there's no indication that the investment will have any immediate or med-term value.

That's just one of many cards in our hand that we've set fire to for the short and med-term. Not only that, but as the pound weakens and still there are no agreements in sight, there could be a signifcant cash flight from the country by international investors. If I was a US or Chinese investor with assets in the UK, my main priority right now would be to safeguard the value of those assets and liquidate my position - if I maintain my investment for the next few years whereas if I withdraw it now then I could try to minimise my impending losses. Or if I were considering making an investment in a UK business I would step out of the deal immediately as there's no guarantee the my investment will be able to generate non-local reveue in the near term.

I'm not talking about whether anyone will want to trade with us, but the actual investment in the country's economy will evaporate.

Dave M · 27 Jun 2016 at 00:04

davewhite04 said:
Of course it has, but it works both ways. Think.

Think? Hmm, okay.

So you say the bloc is strengthened by the UKs inclusion, obviously - that's the point of it. So what is it you're saying - putting our own economy in the toilet is worth it because we dropped everyone else in it too?

Dave M · 27 Jun 2016 at 00:08

davewhite04 said:
The decision is made, so like the rest of us you have to move on and not fester or resent or blame or hate anything.

Isolationism has lost every battle to globalisation for the last 300 years - the forces of internationalism won't admit defeat because of one lost vote (the consequence of which is still to be determined).

If you think one referendum in one windswept island will roll back the global direction of travel you're sadly deluded. We've just made life hard for ourselves before we get back with the program in a few years.

dowie · 27 Jun 2016 at 00:16

Poneros said:
So, with the UK voting for an exit, you think it has a better negotiating position on the issue than Switzerland?

in terms of free movement - yes

And you think this position is so good that the EU would be willing to compromise one of the main pillars, if not THE main pillar, of the project, for the UK? Honestly?

we're no longer part of the project so rather moot, they're not compromising anything if we're not a member any more

they also want to do some form of deal with us so yeah a compromise probably could be found that would involve some form of access and still make it fairly easy for most EU/UK citizens to move back and forth

davewhite04 · 27 Jun 2016 at 00:20

Macro said:
And how's that going to work for you when Scotland leaves the UK and rejoins the EU?

I don't understand why you would ask me that?

regulus · 27 Jun 2016 at 00:23

davewhite04 said:
Now that we've decided to leave the EU I just want to get a grasp on what is angering the ex-remain camp.

The only thing that affects me is I'll probably have to apply for an updated passport/driving license once we cut ties.

How does it affect you?

It doesn't really. I choose to live in NZ right now. If I ever wanted to live back in Europe, I'm positive that it would be just as easy to get a work visa if I wanted to. Sufficiently qualified and skilled with ample international work experience.

Boycey0211 · 27 Jun 2016 at 00:25

Russinating said:
I run a small business employing 5 people (including us two directors). Instantly we lost the opportunity of £50,000, as we had tenders with two councils who receive a significant amount of funding through the EU's European Regional Development Fund. We've worked with one before which received €450m. The fact that those areas also voted Leave - Cornwall and South Wales - is absolutely mind boggling. Anyway, those infrastructure and development funds will be scrapped completely and the projects we tendered for will naturally be canned.

We also have a client who's a UK based tour operator. We've just employed that fifth person to undertake a large part of this contract but they have no idea what's going to happen. If the pound remains weak they may lose customers to UK travel, especially for their North America trips. If this is the case they could well pull part of our contract and if the Brexit only effects 3 of their North America trips we'll lose over £45,000 and likely have to make our new employee redundant.

As you can guess I voted remain and am genuinely worried. I hope I'm wrong but given I lost a lot the second it was announced I can't really see anything offsetting that.

I was sat watching the results rolling in, wasn't that shocked to be honest until the results from wales rolled in. My extended family used to brag about the fact that they were paid more to rear sheep by the EU than they would make sending them for slaughter in the first place so effectively they were making twice the money.

Was gobsmacked when their region that is mainly livestock farming voted to leave by a 60% odd vote. No idea what they are planning on doing now.

Macro · 27 Jun 2016 at 00:25

davewhite04 said:
I don't understand why you would ask me that?

Do you think

A) the UK will remain the 5th largest economy in the world (or better!) after having left the EU despite having had Scotland leave the UK to rejoin the EU leaving just England, Wales and NI (and this doesn't take into account the potential changes meaning NI could well accelerate union with Eire also leaving the UK given their vote to remain)?

or

B)this train of events will fundamentally damage the UKs economic and influence position in the world

Edinho · 27 Jun 2016 at 00:25

beh said:
Do you really believe that is the only thing you will face?

To start you off, not sure we'd have nice things like the Working Time Directive without the EU (we were the only country to vote against it).

The Working Time directive is a perfect example of EU law not working.

You work 60 hours a week - sign on the dotted line. Or we find someone who will.

Utterly pointless/worthless piece of legislation.

Infact it's got worse since it all came in. People forced to work weekends with days off scattered through the week. And then theres people working weekly rolling contracts... can I go on. Yeah the EU really helps them. :rolleyes:

davewhite04 · 27 Jun 2016 at 00:31

toshj said:
We lose international investment because no sane firm or country is going to make investments in to the country until our path has been agreed upon. At best that might be two years, at worse it could go beyond a decade. No international firm is going to set up offices in London instead of Paris, or Berlin or Milan, as we won't know whether we can trade with EU countries/clients for two years minimum. It's business suicide to establish an office or investment (buying a UK-based firm for example) in the country as there's no indication that the investment will have any immediate or med-term value.

That's just one of many cards in our hand that we've set fire to for the short and med-term. Not only that, but as the pound weakens and still there are no agreements in sight, there could be a signifcant cash flight from the country by international investors. If I was a US or Chinese investor with assets in the UK, my main priority right now would be to safeguard the value of those assets and liquidate my position - if I maintain my investment for the next few years whereas if I withdraw it now then I could try to minimise my impending losses. Or if I were considering making an investment in a UK business I would step out of the deal immediately as there's no guarantee the my investment will be able to generate non-local reveue in the near term.

I'm not talking about whether anyone will want to trade with us, but the actual investment in the country's economy will evaporate.

We have made a bold step there is no doubt, but despite all this talk about the financial services leaving London and bankrupting the country etc. I don't buy it, a handful might leave, but we will continue to have all our major trade deals as it's in our partners bests interests. Like I said, we will rise once this rock(EU) holding us back has gone and we can setup trade routes with existing partners and new, much larger ones.

Britain isn't finished, it's just getting started.

Boycey0211 · 27 Jun 2016 at 00:33

davewhite04 said:
We have made a bold step there is no doubt, but despite all this talk about the financial services leaving London and bankrupting the country etc. I don't buy it, a handful might leave, but we will continue to have all our major trade deals as it's in our partners bests interests. Like I said, we will rise once this rock(EU) holding us back has gone and we can setup trade routes with existing partners and new, much larger ones.

Britain isn't finished, it's just getting started.

christ you are deluded.