When are you going fully electric?

[jpaul]

do you have anything to back that up? i only ask because, admittedly i am no expert but i thought the ncap safety test was pretty punishing and the same for all cars, even the chinese ones.

had posted this before but if you look at chassis cost of seal 5K$ versus meb 9K$

UBS dismantled BYD's “Seal”, and the cost was 15% lower than that of Tesla, lamenting “its power to disrupt global car companies”

UBSbelieves that China's tram industry is in a “knockout phase” and that the winners will actively pursue a global expansion strategy. This means that Europe will be “forced” to start a “price war” for electric cars, and BYD will become the industry leader. By 2030, the global market share of...

www.moomoo.com

I had not realised i-pace was (noble) aluminium though - that's a compliment jonny.

So when someone tries to proclaim that EVs are a lot heavier and therefore “not as fun on a B road”, well I question their bias quite frankly.

even with a sub 1.5T bmw as soon as you load it up with 4 people - you're whole driving style has to change braking, taking bends, roundabouts ...
I can see with a nearer 2t ev the additional percentage weight from them is lower so maybe you notice it less

 

[ICDP]

It's not really a bias one way or another, just a fact that something that's 2.3 tonnes is not typically going to respond like something that is nearer 1 tonne,

Just snipping the rest to address this point. You have proved exactly the kind of bias I was referring too in my post. If you are being so disingenuous to compare a 2.3 tonne car to a 1 tonne small sports car, that’s on you. I was addressing the mistaken concept that the reason cars are heavier is “cus batteries” and as such EVs couldn’t be “fun”.

And no, in brisk B road driving 250kg - 300kg will not suddenly render a car “unfun”. Not sure how we suddenly went to track days being brought into it. By that metric everything is crap compared to an F1 car.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

had posted this before but if you look at chassis cost of seal 5K$ versus meb 9K$

UBS dismantled BYD's “Seal”, and the cost was 15% lower than that of Tesla, lamenting “its power to disrupt global car companies”

UBSbelieves that China's tram industry is in a “knockout phase” and that the winners will actively pursue a global expansion strategy. This means that Europe will be “forced” to start a “price war” for electric cars, and BYD will become the industry leader. By 2030, the global market share of...

www.moomoo.com

I had not realised i-pace was (noble) aluminium though - that's a compliment jonny.

Yeah its only been out 8 years, that Googling needs to sharpen up

Point with a heavy EV is that the centre of gravity is lower, the car is designed for that with its roll centre on the suspension and tyre performance and the payload of any extra passengers is actually % less. Trying to compare to the effect on an ICE is frankly comedy, especially when citing the fun around country lanes when you haven't actually driven an EV car! Its more fun than my 835Kg Honda Insight thats for sure!

 

[Nasher]

250-300kg is about the same as a few passengers. That makes a big difference and you'll feel that even in road driving. Everything gets worse when you add weight.

When you get under a ton everything really starts to feel alive, but those days are gone . 2.3t is a van. You can have the weight placed low down, but there is no hiding that mass and momentum.

 

[sandys]

Just snipping the rest to address this point. You have proved exactly the kind of bias I was referring too in my post. If you are being so disingenuous to compare a 2.3 tonne car to a 1 tonne small sports car, that’s on you. I was addressing the mistaken concept that the reason cars are heavier is “cus batteries” and as such EVs couldn’t be “fun”.

And no, in brisk B road driving 250kg - 300kg will not suddenly male a car “unfun”. Not sure how we suddenly went to track days being brought into it. By that metric everything is crap compared to an F1 car.

I should not have put 2.3 in there as it triggers you an send you down the wrong path, a 1200kg hot hatch will typically be more responsive than one that is 1500kg, all other things being equal, it's simple really, there is no world really where you can make more weight a benefit to a sporty cars prowess, which ever way you paint it.

Yes the low weight of the battery can help but if that battery was half the weight would you say the cars performance would degrade, no it would only get better.

I mentioned trackdays as that is what I do a lot of, well its been a while to be fair but in track and handling demo days I can feel the difference between a sleight lady and a big bruiser like me in the passenger seat especially in the wet, more weight is very noticeable.

Of course it is not the be all and end all, I won quite a few autosolo, hillclimb and sprint champs etc despite my own personal weight penalty, who needs batteries when there are pies, I'd be even more awesome without it

 

[Jonnycoupe]

I use Uber all the time and so far had 3 conversations with the drivers about EVs.
None of them interested because they could drop me off at my house in Stoke and the next job could be driving to Liverpool.
They all said it would be great if they could only have jobs in a certain area but it doesn't work like that.

Octopus Energy powers Uber drivers with free EV chargers and cheaper charging​

The UK Charging Infrastructure Symposium

Join the UK Charging Infrastructure Symposium on 4-5 November 2024 at the British Motor Museum, to explore next-generation vehicle-charging solutions. Engage with experts, discuss evolving technologies like wireless and automated charging, and strategise for a future-proof infrastructure for all...

www.charginginfrastructuresymposium.com

Dara Khosrowshahi, Uber CEO said: "There are now over 180,000 EVs on Uber and drivers are going electric five times faster than the average motorist, but there’s much more to do. The new features and partnerships being announced today are designed to accelerate electrification and make sustainable choices easier for drivers, consumers, and merchants. Climate is a team sport and we all must double down on this work together.”

Uber will contact all existing UK drivers with details of how to sign up for the BYD and charger bundle ahead of its launch on 1st November.

 

[bigmike20vt]

250-300kg is about the same as a few passengers. That makes a big difference and you'll feel that even in road driving. Everything gets worse when you add weight.

When you get under a ton everything really starts to feel alive, but those days are gone . 2.3t is a van. You can have the weight placed low down, but there is no hiding that mass and momentum.

this may be true but at the end of the day you are just gonna have to suck it up!.

back in the day when i was a teenager i had friends with reasonably powerful metros for instance, they were great fun to drive, same with the classic mini coopers and the like.... but they were also tin cans, god help you if you were in a crash of any note......... the cars put on a lot of weight partly for safety. (I followed a must have been early 1980s golf the other day, i forgot how small that was. i suspect it weighed a fraction of the weight of a modern golf but again, it would not have had anything like the impact protection of the newer car.

So onto batteries... yes they weigh quite a bit... but unless you are one of those people who does not believe that our pollution is effecting the environment then ultimately going forward, having a battery is just going to have to be the price you pay if you want your own car.

dirty diesels kicking out all sorts of crap just needs to stop, and petrols are not that much better either, just throw out different stuff.

TLDR enjoy your ICE whilst you still can becasue imo they are in their twilight. (in reality if you want to keep one then you are good for another 30 years or more if you keep running an old one but i expect the fuel tax will rocket on them or there will be more and more clean air zones where either they are not allowed or you have to pay for the luxury)

mind you who can say for sure what the government will do..... from April next year some people will be paying more tax on their EVs than other people with diesels which to me is utterly insane, and i dont just mean people with big EVs like mine, but smaller ones aswell.

 

[ICDP]

I should not have put 2.3 in there as it triggers you an send you down the wrong path, a 1200kg hot hatch will typically be more responsive than one that is 1500kg, all other things being equal, it's simple really, there is no world really where you can make more weight a benefit to a sporty cars prowess, which ever way you paint it.

Yes the low weight of the battery can help but if that battery was half the weight would you say the cars performance would degrade, no it would only get better.

I mentioned trackdays as that is what I do a lot of, well its been a while to be fair but in track and handling demo days I can feel the difference between a sleight lady and a big bruiser like me in the passenger seat especially in the wet, more weight is very noticeable.

Let’s not bring this in a tangent nobody was arguing but in essence you are correct, lighter is better but that does not mean heavier cars can’t be fun. Jpaul said that EVs are much much heavier than your typical BMW 3 series from 20 years ago… well duh, the current 3 series is heavier by around 300kg. It don’t make it “not fun” because a car is 300kg heavier, such as a typical EV vs ICE contemporary.

 

[Nasher]

this may be true but at the end of the day you are just gonna have to suck it up!.

back in the day when i was a teenager i had friends with reasonably powerful metros for instance, they were great fun to drive, same with the classic mini coopers and the like.... but they were also tin cans, god help you if you were in a crash of any note......... the cars put on a lot of weight partly for safety. (I followed a must have been early 1980s golf the other day, i forgot how small that was. i suspect it weighed a fraction of the weight of a modern golf but again, it would not have had anything like the impact protection of the newer car.

So onto batteries... yes they weigh quite a bit... but unless you are one of those people who does not believe that our pollution is effecting the environment then ultimately going forward, having a battery is just going to have to be the price you pay if you want your own car.

dirty diesels kicking out all sorts of crap just needs to stop, and petrols are not that much better either, just throw out different stuff.

TLDR enjoy your ICE whilst you still can becasue imo they are in their twilight. (in reality if you want to keep one then you are good for another 30 years or more if you keep running an old one but i expect the fuel tax will rocket on them or there will be more and more clean air zones where either they are not allowed or you have to pay for the luxury)

mind you who can say for sure what the government will do..... from April next year some people will be paying more tax on their EVs than other people with diesels which to me is utterly insane, and i dont just mean people with big EVs like mine, but smaller ones aswell.

More impact protection had to be added to cope with the bloat being added to cars, which needed more impact protection. So everything has become oversized.

I think the situation now is that people are just going to keep running what they have. EV sales have flatlined and most of the ones sold are fleet cars. New government policies are going to hurt that even more. I have an old (pre-DPF) diesel as a commuter, it cost 3 peanuts a year in tax, I can service it myself, tyres and parts are cheap, it does 500 miles to a tank and it's not losing anything in depreciation. I'll never see a saving by switching to electric so there is no incentive.

 

[bigmike20vt]

More impact protection had to be added to cope with the bloat being added to cars, which needed more impact protection. So now we have hatchbacks having to withstand a hit from the latest Range Rover which weighs about as much as small bungalow.

Whilst your example is correct, that isnt the only reason. even in the 1970s lorries and busses were a thing, and a crash back then, even one not involving another vehicle at all would have been far more likely to be fatal than one today - at similar speed hitting say a similar tree.

my uncle rolled his reliant robin, and it literally cut the roof off from the steering wheel down it was a minor miracle he survived (indeed he kept the car afterwards so i am told)

 

[sandys]

mind you who can say for sure what the government will do..... from April next year some people will be paying more tax on their EVs than other people with diesels which to me is utterly insane, and i dont just mean people with big EVs like mine, but smaller ones aswell.

Nope never going to happen, the EV will be less tax still as the diesel driver will be paying tax on the fuel.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

Octopus Energy powers Uber drivers with free EV chargers and cheaper charging​

The UK Charging Infrastructure Symposium

Join the UK Charging Infrastructure Symposium on 4-5 November 2024 at the British Motor Museum, to explore next-generation vehicle-charging solutions. Engage with experts, discuss evolving technologies like wireless and automated charging, and strategise for a future-proof infrastructure for all...

www.charginginfrastructuresymposium.com

Blah blah blah already answered a couple of days ago

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Nope never going to happen, the EV will be less tax still as the diesel driver will be paying tax on the fuel.

My old diesel is still on the road and paying ~£30 VED, a few years newer Nissan leaf will be paying the flat rate next year.

Edit: yes the fuel tax will of course outweigh the VED but it’s all about the optics.

 

[sandys]

But the leaf won't be paying fuel duty or the vat on that fuel, so an ICE car is paying much more tax on the whole, so they won't be missing out on shoveling money to the Gov.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

But the leaf won't be paying fuel duty or the vat on that fuel, so an ICE car is paying much more tax on the whole.

Indeed I missed the key word in your reply - ninja edit above.

While less of a thing these days, the original purchaser of the older leaf example probably paid an additional £2k of VAT compared to a similar ICE car at the time.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

mind you who can say for sure what the government will do..... from April next year some people will be paying more tax on their EVs than other people with diesels which to me is utterly insane, and i dont just mean people with big EVs like mine, but smaller ones aswell.

Can you imagine the furore against a Government who have tried to get people go Green, yes even Labour the last time they were in Government, then suddenly hitting those same people for going Green?
It won't give any incentive for any driver to buy an EV over ICE cars, I don't care about paying a £190 car tax, I didn't buy an EV because I didn't have to buy car tax and probably no-one on here did but hiking it to silly prices where you are no better off for doing what the Govt have asked us to do (and making us do in a few years) is silly.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Blah blah blah already answered a couple of days ago

Huh?

Wind it in.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Last night around 10.30pm my mate wanted a quick demo so I said we'll go up the A50 and after Longport roundabout it's 70 all the way to the motorway, you can see Overlockers on the right.
I said I'd better be careful because of average speed cameras but we have got a great run until the next one.
We get to the 70mph carriageway, nothing behind me so I pulled up on the first lane, he shouted go and timed me with his watch and as soon as I hit 60mph he said 6 seconds and within a second I was on 70.
I then said I'm going to pretend there's a lorry on my left dawdling so I'm going to hit the pedal and within what seemed like 2 seconds I was doing 90 and immediately slowed down
It was a speed and quickness I've never personally witnessed before and he was sold because he's always had high performance cars and he said the MG4 totally blew away any of his cars in that initial speed test however he has had cars that could outrun the Police and I think this only does 99mph but it's not something I'll be doing again anyway <Boy Racer Mode Off>

Blah blah blah. Everyone knows EVs are fast now. Welcome to 2016.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

Blah blah blah. Everyone knows EVs are fast now. Welcome to 2016.

Blah blah blah, well me and my mate didn't.

 

[bigmike20vt]

But the leaf won't be paying fuel duty or the vat on that fuel, so an ICE car is paying much more tax on the whole, so they won't be missing out on shoveling money to the Gov.

that all depends on where they charge........ home users may still be able to be ok ..... but those relying on public charging where costs can be more than diesel per mile driven......................... these people could have bought the EV at a significant premium over the ICE counter part due to cheap public charging and no car tax............. since then, public charging has rocketed and soon they will be paying car tax.

imo it should not be regressive........ given EVs are now give or take price parity with ICE cars then sure, tax them going forward but those who took a punt and shelled out a lot of cash (not all are on sweet lease schemes) i think its harsh those having to stump up more tax than say our pug diesel (which we would still have had someone not wrote it off last year).. imo they should treat EV car tax the same way they are treating luxury car tax on EVs

our "eco" diesel never got screwed tax wise when the rules were changed... it was only going forward, so why go backwards on EVs now?