When are you going fully electric?

Well yes there is that but you can’t if you want that new car.

It’s really all just an economic decision and nothing more. You buy what fits your needs or what you want within the budget you are prepared to pay for it and that’s that. Nothing more and nothing less really.

It doesn’t really matter how they swing the incentives if that’s off the purchase price or via BIK, what matters is how much it costs per month to drive. That’s all 99% of people take into account.

People just need to be careful with salary sacrifice schemes because while it’s cheaper now, it wrecks your pension contributions.
 
Having a argument with a friend who thinks the idea of using cars as a back up battery for the grid will work, I said after the latest petrol crisis, do you think people will enable grid sharing on their cars?

We had people that do 10 miles a day fill up 80ltr tanks, do you think they will let the grid lower the battery percentage over night and risk their mileage in the morning.

We are in the generation of "I'm all right jack"
 
Journey said:
You've got it wrong, they would be discharged at peak, and charged during the night when the load is low.
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If you read the Nationalgrid future forecast the Load and peak are expected to switch around in the 2030. with the removal of low rates in the nights expected by 2028.

Peak will be at night due to BEV charging and Electric heating. 7.2kw per house for 8 hours from 5pm to mid morning or longer.
 
Yes, because they’ll get paid for it or will be reducing their own energy bills.

Plus it will not be overnight it will be between 5-8pm when there is peek demand. Overnight it when it’s refilled back for the next day at low demand.

The price of a kWh during peek demand is huge compared to the average and off peak price. It’s all about demand shifting rather than just getting the grid nick your electric from your car.

They probably only need to take a few kwh if there was enough cars plugged in and the UKs evening peek demand would be completely flattened, costs dramatically reduced and it would have a negligible impact on the car. It’s far less demand than driving.
 
Abraxaz1 said:
Peak will be at night due to BEV charging and Electric heating. 7.2kw per house for 8 hours from 5pm to mid morning or longer.
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I don’t deny that demand at night is going to increase, that’s a given but it certainly will not be 7.2kw for 8 hours or more per house.

The average daily mileage is well under 30 miles, assume two cars, that’s 60 miles. At a very generous 3 miles/kWh that’s 20kwh. That’s less than 3 hours charging at 7kw.

All of the above numbers are overestimated, the actual number will be less given the average daily miles driven is only really around 22.
 
b0rn2sk8 said:
Yes, because they’ll get paid for it or will be reducing their own energy bills.

Plus it will not be overnight it will be between 5-8pm when there is peek demand. Overnight it when it’s refilled back for the next day at low demand.

The price of a kWh during peek demand is huge compared to the average and off peak price. It’s all about demand shifting rather than just getting the grid nick your electric from your car.

They probably only need to take a few kwh if there was enough cars plugged in and the UKs evening peek demand would be completely flattened, costs dramatically reduced and it would have a negligible impact on the car. It’s far less demand than driving.
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You're failing to take into account, feed back losses through the DNO's. Feeding back on the lower power network and transferring it to the high for local distribution will require multiple power factor correcting equipment to be installed at every charging point.
It is not cheap,
If you don't we will end up with dirty frequencies all over the grid, causing electronics to go haywire.

These cars will not in the majority be plugged in during the day, so will be part of the demand coming on at 5pm, so the idea of using KWH from cars to prop up the grid is only a best case scenario.

The biggest issue will be the power factor.
 
Abraxaz1 said:
You're failing to take into account, feed back losses through the DNO's. Feeding back on the lower power network and transferring it to the high for local distribution will require multiple power factor correcting equipment to be installed at every charging point.
It is not cheap,
If you don't we will end up with dirty frequencies all over the grid, causing electronics to go haywire.

These cars will not in the majority be plugged in during the day, so will be part of the demand coming on at 5pm, so the idea of using KWH from cars to prop up the grid is only a best case scenario.

The biggest issue will be the power factor.
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I wouldn't have thought they'd be looking to feed back that far? Surely it would be a far more local level of resilience - so when everyone gets home at 5.30 and puts the oven on for dinner etc. it would perhaps use your car to support the demand in your own local circuits or local area, rather than trying to load balance all the way back up to the HV part of the network.
 
Of course cars could be plugged in during the peek demand period. The peek power draw in the U.K. comes from domestic activity, you don’t get that peek power draw when people are out driving their cars :p

Likewise the power doesn’t need to even be exported and most of it would be used within the property where the car is plugged into. It reduces grid demand without the need to export. You’ll get the choice, pay £lol/kWh in peek demand or take a bit from the car and recharge it later for next to nothing. Smart metering is pretty much the enabler for that and is why they are ramming them into every house ASAP.

It’s not really any different to how Solar reduces demand but also exporting surplus back to the grid as already happens now. How is coming from a battery is any different to the huge solar arrays you can install on your house and export all day long?
 
Kenai said:
I wouldn't have thought they'd be looking to feed back that far? Surely it would be a far more local level of resilience - so when everyone gets home at 5.30 and puts the oven on for dinner etc. it would perhaps use your car to support the demand in your own local circuits or local area, rather than trying to load balance all the way back up to the HV part of the network.
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Electricity goes everywhere.

A frequency issue on a DNO can cause switch off on the ETO, hence why when a generator is connected to a down line you have to isolate further upstream as it which cause out of phase frequency issues for the power factor monitoring equipment further upstream.

We had a major issue with a small wind turbine on a farm that was out of phase when exporting causing brown outs across a area due to it tripping the Power factor correction equipment at the switch room.

Also phase balancing will be a major issue, if you have a certain number of cars exporting on one phase you can introduce harmonics onto the local transformer, these harmonics cause the coils to over heat or even vibrate themselves loose.
So the DNO will not just need to balance the load on importation but also on exportation.

I just see it as far too much work/ points of failure for it to be a valid. Plus the requirements under ofgem for equipment to be validated would be costly for the average consumer,
 
Would load balancing the grid cause additional degradation to the batteries or is it in the same realms as regen if discharge rates are kept sensible and within a specified SOC window?

Probably asking a question we don't know the answer to yet because until we get mass adoption of vehicle to grid capable cars we don't categorically know what battery tech they will be using.
 
Again something is slightly hard or will take time, so therefore just abandon it completely.

It's always the same when big changes happen, money, hard, time, faff, don't bother. Negative, negative, negative, nothing mentioned is insurmountable, but yeah let's not bother, everyone let's all get horses and carts again, and while we are at it candles!
 
lordrobs said:
Would load balancing the grid cause additional degradation to the batteries or is it in the same realms as regen if discharge rates are kept sensible and within a specified SOC window?

Probably asking a question we don't know the answer to yet because until we get mass adoption of vehicle to grid capable cars we don't categorically know what battery tech they will be using.
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It nothing like the demands of a car, positively gentle in both directions. Charging a car is the peak load my house sees anyway, 7kW compared to 300kw discharge or 200kW regen.
 
lordrobs said:
Would load balancing the grid cause additional degradation to the batteries or is it in the same realms as regen if discharge rates are kept sensible and within a specified SOC window?

Probably asking a question we don't know the answer to yet because until we get mass adoption of vehicle to grid capable cars we don't categorically know what battery tech they will be using.
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Put it this way, the highest power draw I’ve ever seen from my smart meter is about 13kw. I’d have to turn pretty much everything on to draw that kind of power. When I mash the go pedal on my car, the motor can draw upwards of 200kw.

Sure it will never sustain 200kw for any significant length of time but 13kw doesn’t even touch the sides. The 60kwh pack could in theory run my house for 5 days. So nicking a few KWh to run the house for a couple of hours while the price is £lol will have a negligible impact on its life.
 
Abraxaz1 said:
Also phase balancing will be a major issue, if you have a certain number of cars exporting on one phase you can introduce harmonics onto the local transformer, these harmonics cause the coils to over heat or even vibrate themselves loose.
So the DNO will not just need to balance the load on importation but also on exportation.

I just see it as far too much work/ points of failure for it to be a valid. Plus the requirements under ofgem for equipment to be validated would be costly for the average consumer,
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Is this even a problem within local consumer household if you used the vehicle to grid capabilities.

I'd wondered whether you should adapt the consumer circuitry when you install an ev charger to enable you to later use that.

(although apparently hynudai are questioning whether their ev batteries can be certified if consumer used this capability extensively,
with heat pumps I assume overnight electricity use will dramatically rise as people top up their hot water tanks though, so electric will no longer be cheap)
 
jpaul said:
Is this even a problem within local consumer household if you used the vehicle to grid capabilities.

I'd wondered whether you should adapt the consumer circuitry when you install an ev charger to enable you to later use that.

(although apparently hynudai are questioning whether their ev batteries can be certified if consumer used this capability extensively,
with heat pumps I assume overnight electricity use will dramatically rise as people top up their hot water tanks though, so electric will no longer be cheap)
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The issue isnt with individual households powering themselves, it comes with the idea that a they can replace entire power stations with BEV storage discharge, the more power you put out onto the grid the more power factor is going to be strained. Especially as you are going to have multiple imports through different equipment built to different standards.

Either they dont go ahead with it, or every house will need to have a power factor corrector at point of entry/ exit.
And the DNO will need to go around and make sure each house is correctly balanced on supply and maybe rewire if you end up with more houses on a phase taking up the offer than on another.
Its a ball ache in the most basic form.

Yeah, not sure if grid have actually released the future forecast for power usage outside the company but yes, power peaks and loads are expected to change from during the day to overnight. With the majority being Vehicle charging and heating, making up the majority load.

Like I said, grid are very fussy with what comes onto the network and it just screams point of failure.
 
Jonnycoupe said:
It nothing like the demands of a car, positively gentle in both directions. Charging a car is the peak load my house sees anyway, 7kW compared to 300kw discharge or 200kW regen.
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b0rn2sk8 said:
Put it this way, the highest power draw I’ve ever seen from my smart meter is about 13kw. I’d have to turn pretty much everything on to draw that kind of power. When I mash the go pedal on my car, the motor can draw upwards of 200kw.

Sure it will never sustain 200kw for any significant length of time but 13kw doesn’t even touch the sides. The 60kwh pack could in theory run my house for 5 days. So nicking a few KWh to run the house for a couple of hours while the price is £lol will have a negligible impact on its life.
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Interesting stuff. It certainly sounds like something Joe Public is more likely to get on board with if it is simply a case of plugging the car in as normal and setting an option, especially as it sounds like zero impact on the battery.

Certainly more viable than people spending thousands on dedicated batteries (Tesla Powerwall etc.) in their garages to do the same job.
 
Abraxaz1 said:
The issue isnt with individual households powering themselves, it comes with the idea that a they can replace entire power stations with BEV storage discharge, the more power you put out onto the grid the more power factor is going to be strained. Especially as you are going to have multiple imports through different equipment built to different standards.

Either they dont go ahead with it, or every house will need to have a power factor corrector at point of entry/ exit.
And the DNO will need to go around and make sure each house is correctly balanced on supply and maybe rewire if you end up with more houses on a phase taking up the offer than on another.
Its a ball ache in the most basic form.

Yeah, not sure if grid have actually released the future forecast for power usage outside the company but yes, power peaks and loads are expected to change from during the day to overnight. With the majority being Vehicle charging and heating, making up the majority load.

Like I said, grid are very fussy with what comes onto the network and it just screams point of failure.
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Excuse my ignorance here but how is it any different to people with solar feeding back in to the grid?
 
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