I would also then travel outside of rush hour to reduce my travel time
When is travel time work time?
- Thread starter Gilly
- Start date
I would also then travel outside of rush hour to reduce my travel time
If your work are putting you up in a hotel reasonably near office Y then let it slide; if they're not then they need to pay. And if they're expecting you to drive 8 hours a day, then you ought to read up on the laws concerning drivers.
Just to clarify, you are making this trip at the start and end of the week to another office (business-owned or a client?) and expected to start and finish at normal times, for example 8am and 5pm?
Without wanting to be nosey, what does your role entail and how is this worded in your contract? It sounds like you're currently a peripatetic worker, i.e. working away from normal fixed base. If this assignment you're on is for a client, then you are essentially visiting a client site and the definition of a peripatetic worker states that the travel time to the first and from the last "customer" is categorised as work time.
It's an awkward situation with, as you've found out, not much guidance out there. May well be worth speaking to ACAS directly about it, or a solicitor with employment law experience. A lot will come down to interpretation (but hey, what doesn't these days?). At the end of the day I see where you're coming from and agree with your points, but you don't want to come across as a troublesome employee that doesn't want to put in the effort.
If the remuneration package was already a part of your contract before you were assigned to this other office, then you at least have ammunition there for some reimbursement either time or remuneration.
Without wanting to be nosey, what does your role entail and how is this worded in your contract? It sounds like you're currently a peripatetic worker, i.e. working away from normal fixed base. If this assignment you're on is for a client, then you are essentially visiting a client site and the definition of a peripatetic worker states that the travel time to the first and from the last "customer" is categorised as work time.
It's an awkward situation with, as you've found out, not much guidance out there. May well be worth speaking to ACAS directly about it, or a solicitor with employment law experience. A lot will come down to interpretation (but hey, what doesn't these days?). At the end of the day I see where you're coming from and agree with your points, but you don't want to come across as a troublesome employee that doesn't want to put in the effort.
If the remuneration package was already a part of your contract before you were assigned to this other office, then you at least have ammunition there for some reimbursement either time or remuneration.
Well, it's not the start of the week because I flatly refused to spend the whole week away, so I'm traveling Tuesday morning and coming back Thursday night (though I'm still under pressure to spend more time away than that). I'm setting off between 5-6am to arrive onsite before lunch on the Tuesday and leaving after 4 on the Thursday, getting home around 9pm. Working all night Tuesday and Wednesday trying to claw the time back that I've spent traveling.
Remuneration was agreed before I found out where my first assignment was
I don't expect any sort of recompense for the travel time, I just don't want it to continue.
The role I do is supposed to be service architecture but I'm actually doing service transition more than anything else. A lot of the design work is done before we get our statement of work. I spoke to ACAS, they didn't even think I should be deducting the time I spend commuting to my contractual base location, they think that when I'm going to the site I've been sent to by work directly from home, that I should be classed as working the moment I leave the house. It has no precedent in UK law though, so it's difficult to enforce.
Remuneration was agreed before I found out where my first assignment was
I don't expect any sort of recompense for the travel time, I just don't want it to continue.
The role I do is supposed to be service architecture but I'm actually doing service transition more than anything else. A lot of the design work is done before we get our statement of work. I spoke to ACAS, they didn't even think I should be deducting the time I spend commuting to my contractual base location, they think that when I'm going to the site I've been sent to by work directly from home, that I should be classed as working the moment I leave the house. It has no precedent in UK law though, so it's difficult to enforce.
"By traveling and working in this manner, does it positively impact my ability to earn and in doing so am I willing to make the sacrifice this demands in my personal life."
For me that is the question I ask myself, to which the answer will vary at any given time in my life. I travel and am away from home around 1/3 of the year. Last week I was in Spain for 3 days, this week London for 4, next week South Africa all week, then Scotland for 2 days the following week. That is a long time to be away, is very hard on my wife and even though I am able to stay in some very nice places and plan in some down time it is trying, even more so as I approach 50. I won't do it for ever, but right now I do it because it provides the benefits that right now are important. If I had to do this for the cheapest possible budget I would not consider it as doing it in a relaxed manner is part of that decision point I started with. I have travelled most of my working life, I am used to getting up early, getting home late, it's what I do and frankly it's what you have to do unless you are very lucky if you want to earn well.
Trying to pick out what the law allows for is frankly wasted. If you are of the level where this is what the role demands either do it or get another roll and ask yourself the question I started with.
For me that is the question I ask myself, to which the answer will vary at any given time in my life. I travel and am away from home around 1/3 of the year. Last week I was in Spain for 3 days, this week London for 4, next week South Africa all week, then Scotland for 2 days the following week. That is a long time to be away, is very hard on my wife and even though I am able to stay in some very nice places and plan in some down time it is trying, even more so as I approach 50. I won't do it for ever, but right now I do it because it provides the benefits that right now are important. If I had to do this for the cheapest possible budget I would not consider it as doing it in a relaxed manner is part of that decision point I started with. I have travelled most of my working life, I am used to getting up early, getting home late, it's what I do and frankly it's what you have to do unless you are very lucky if you want to earn well.
Trying to pick out what the law allows for is frankly wasted. If you are of the level where this is what the role demands either do it or get another roll and ask yourself the question I started with.
Difficult indeed!
Purely from a non-bias, third party view I'd agree with ACAS; although a lot will boil down to how it is worded in your contract. Whilst there is no precedent, I think interpretation would largely side with you over the employer. What do you do on the Monday and Friday - normal office location or have it off? For the evening work, you could always play the working hours card and the requirement for 11 hours consecutive rest.
I know personally I wouldn't (and have flat-out refused to in the past) be working in the evenings out of principle - they've asked you to make the journey, therefore that is work time, you can only do so much work in what remains in the day. When I was doing work for the NHS early on I was keen to get the work done and would put as much time into it as possible, but that was without the commitments and family you have, and that grew quite tiresome after a short while to the point that I wanted to stop it, and did after some firm discussions with my managers and Trust board.
Purely from a non-bias, third party view I'd agree with ACAS; although a lot will boil down to how it is worded in your contract. Whilst there is no precedent, I think interpretation would largely side with you over the employer. What do you do on the Monday and Friday - normal office location or have it off? For the evening work, you could always play the working hours card and the requirement for 11 hours consecutive rest.
I know personally I wouldn't (and have flat-out refused to in the past) be working in the evenings out of principle - they've asked you to make the journey, therefore that is work time, you can only do so much work in what remains in the day. When I was doing work for the NHS early on I was keen to get the work done and would put as much time into it as possible, but that was without the commitments and family you have, and that grew quite tiresome after a short while to the point that I wanted to stop it, and did after some firm discussions with my managers and Trust board.
The glamour of international travel is often overplayed anyway.....just arrived in from our security team.
South Africa: Johannesburg: Avoid vicinity of Sandton Gautrain station following reported shooting
Members in Johannesburg should avoid the vicinity of Sandton Gautrain station following a reported shoot-out between police and metered taxi drivers. According to local media sources, the violence erupted in the midst of a demonstration organised by taxi drivers to protest against the Uber smartphone taxi app. Police and emergency services are at the scene and some streets adjacent to the station, including Rivonia, West and Stella roads, have reportedly been closed. Details are still emerging.
Travel advice
If in the immediate area, minimise movement and remain in a secure location. Avoid the vicinity of the Gautrain station in Sandton until the situation has stabilizes. Anticipate heightened security and localised traffic disruption on Rivoinia, West and Stella roads. Monitor our travel security alerts on South Africa for further developments.
South Africa: Johannesburg: Avoid vicinity of Sandton Gautrain station following reported shooting
Members in Johannesburg should avoid the vicinity of Sandton Gautrain station following a reported shoot-out between police and metered taxi drivers. According to local media sources, the violence erupted in the midst of a demonstration organised by taxi drivers to protest against the Uber smartphone taxi app. Police and emergency services are at the scene and some streets adjacent to the station, including Rivonia, West and Stella roads, have reportedly been closed. Details are still emerging.
Travel advice
If in the immediate area, minimise movement and remain in a secure location. Avoid the vicinity of the Gautrain station in Sandton until the situation has stabilizes. Anticipate heightened security and localised traffic disruption on Rivoinia, West and Stella roads. Monitor our travel security alerts on South Africa for further developments.
HMRC, in terms of tax relief for business travel purposes, is defined at 24 months, not three weeks. If Gilly has been told to go to this other office for a period unlikely to reach or exceed 24 months then it is classed as a temporary workplace. If the assignment is expected to last 24 months then the classification is based upon time spent there - if more than 40% of his work time is spent there then it is no longer temporary and considered a permanent place of work. Similarly, if it exceeds, or is expected to exceed 24 months then it is considered permanent for tax relief purposes. Source: HMRC Guidance 490 - Employee Travel, sections 3.10 onwards. gov.uk pdf link
If this were me I'd either be counting the commute to my temporary place of work as 'Work time' or asking for accommodation plus an allowance over and above expenses - The Monday/Friday commute would still classed as 'work time'.
I haven't read the entire thread but if you are using a train to travel for example and you are able to work during the journey then that's much easier to agree what is 'work' and what is 'travel to work'.
My Contract is for 37.5 hours per week. I am not allowed to work more than a 12 hour shift - we use google to ascertain travel times, if the journey plus my normal working day is over 12 hours - its a hotel/expenses/allowance. However, this is open to interpretation depending on what the method of travel is. If on the way home I suffer traffic or train delays then I take that time as time in lieu.
One thing to note, is the job you do at any time have the potential to cause harm to yourself or others? what I mean is could your decision making be impaired by fatigue based on longer than normal hours, such that someone could be harmed? If it really is pi$$ing you off you could play the old Health and Safety card.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg382.pdf
I haven't read the entire thread but if you are using a train to travel for example and you are able to work during the journey then that's much easier to agree what is 'work' and what is 'travel to work'.
My Contract is for 37.5 hours per week. I am not allowed to work more than a 12 hour shift - we use google to ascertain travel times, if the journey plus my normal working day is over 12 hours - its a hotel/expenses/allowance. However, this is open to interpretation depending on what the method of travel is. If on the way home I suffer traffic or train delays then I take that time as time in lieu.
One thing to note, is the job you do at any time have the potential to cause harm to yourself or others? what I mean is could your decision making be impaired by fatigue based on longer than normal hours, such that someone could be harmed? If it really is pi$$ing you off you could play the old Health and Safety card.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg382.pdf
The only issue I've had in terms of health and safety has been tiredness whilst driving. I'm working late on the Tues/Weds evenings to try to make the time back, then early into the office, work most or all of the day then drive 200+ miles. I'm completely drained by the time I get back home.
I'm driving the distances, not using the train, because otherwise I feel trapped in the hotel, and have to get taxis to and from the office which would be frowned upon anyway (fuel card is centrally funded, taxis would be funded by the account).
Basically my days are:
Monday: WFH, or on occasion central London or Manchester
Tuesday: up early, drive 204 miles, work until COP then go to the hotel and work another 6 hours
Weds: up early, into the office, work until COP then go to the hotel and work another 6 hours
Thurs: up early, into the office, work as workload dictates (sometimes I'm lucky and can get away mid afternoon but sometimes it's 5-6pm) and then drive back. Depending on the flow of traffic this is often a 6-7 hour journey
Fri: WFH or local office
It means my wife, who works full time, is put under huge strain because I'm away so much and even when I'm here I'm completely drained. This is not what I signed up for. I'm having the right conversations in the right places but things are not moving as quickly as I would like so I'm looking at other roles already, internal and external.
I'm driving the distances, not using the train, because otherwise I feel trapped in the hotel, and have to get taxis to and from the office which would be frowned upon anyway (fuel card is centrally funded, taxis would be funded by the account).
Basically my days are:
Monday: WFH, or on occasion central London or Manchester
Tuesday: up early, drive 204 miles, work until COP then go to the hotel and work another 6 hours
Weds: up early, into the office, work until COP then go to the hotel and work another 6 hours
Thurs: up early, into the office, work as workload dictates (sometimes I'm lucky and can get away mid afternoon but sometimes it's 5-6pm) and then drive back. Depending on the flow of traffic this is often a 6-7 hour journey
Fri: WFH or local office
It means my wife, who works full time, is put under huge strain because I'm away so much and even when I'm here I'm completely drained. This is not what I signed up for. I'm having the right conversations in the right places but things are not moving as quickly as I would like so I'm looking at other roles already, internal and external.
Gilly, I had the exact same situation and then pointed our HR department to the European Court ruling from last year.
Never seen them close shop so quickly - they're now completely stonewalling me.
As an example in my case I traveled to one of our suppliers in Manchester - a 4 hour drive. I spent 3 hours there at a meeting and then 4 hours driving home. My HR department decided that somehow this meant I owed them 5 hours despite having put in an 11 hour day.
I've had days where I've flown to Norway, Paris or my Aberdeen where they've decided that after the flight they then expect 8 hours out of me because 'traveling is an expected part of the job'.
I then therefore pointed out if it's an expected part of the job I'm classed as a traveling worker which means I should be paid from the moment I leave home. They then tried to go back on themselves and say it was only part of my job under exceptional circumstances (it's not, it's mentioned in my contract and I do it on a very regular basis) so I'm not a traveling worker. I then countered that with the above hours and the fact that if it's not part of my job I should therefore be getting paid a travel allowance according to our company travel policy.
That's when the stonewalling started.
Never seen them close shop so quickly - they're now completely stonewalling me.
As an example in my case I traveled to one of our suppliers in Manchester - a 4 hour drive. I spent 3 hours there at a meeting and then 4 hours driving home. My HR department decided that somehow this meant I owed them 5 hours despite having put in an 11 hour day.
I've had days where I've flown to Norway, Paris or my Aberdeen where they've decided that after the flight they then expect 8 hours out of me because 'traveling is an expected part of the job'.
I then therefore pointed out if it's an expected part of the job I'm classed as a traveling worker which means I should be paid from the moment I leave home. They then tried to go back on themselves and say it was only part of my job under exceptional circumstances (it's not, it's mentioned in my contract and I do it on a very regular basis) so I'm not a traveling worker. I then countered that with the above hours and the fact that if it's not part of my job I should therefore be getting paid a travel allowance according to our company travel policy.
That's when the stonewalling started.
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Let's see, you're working three 14+ hour days? That's really not on.
And really, use the train. You're no good to anyone if you're dead.
Let me recast your week:
Monday: WFH, or on occasion central London or Manchester
Tuesday: up modestly early, take the train to the other location, work on the train, work at the office until COP then go to the hotel and get a good night's sleep.
Weds: up at a normal time, into the office, work until COP then go to the hotel and get a good night's sleep.
Thurs: up at a normal time, into the office, work as workload dictates and then take the train home at lunchtime, working on the train.
Fri: WFH or local office
And travel first class so you can actually work.
And really, use the train. You're no good to anyone if you're dead.
Let me recast your week:
Monday: WFH, or on occasion central London or Manchester
Tuesday: up modestly early, take the train to the other location, work on the train, work at the office until COP then go to the hotel and get a good night's sleep.
Weds: up at a normal time, into the office, work until COP then go to the hotel and get a good night's sleep.
Thurs: up at a normal time, into the office, work as workload dictates and then take the train home at lunchtime, working on the train.
Fri: WFH or local office
And travel first class so you can actually work.
That was pretty much the system that Big Blue used when I worked for them. I spent 4 months working at a site 120 miles away with a hotel stay Monday - Thursday, again as part of a service transition.
We'd get into the local office for 7am Monday , collect the hire car and a couple of colleagues then drive down south getting there for about 10am. Leave the remote office at 4pm. Tuesday - Thursday were normal working day. Friday was usual start-time, we'd then leave at 3pm, get back to the local office for 6pm and drop the car off. Rinse and repeat!
Current employer (local government) count travelling time minus your usual commute as working hours if we have to go travel long distance for work purposes. We usually take it back as flexi, although they're now trying to insist on it being TOIL now which gives them more control over us being allowed to claw the time back.
Soldato
- Joined
- 9 Nov 2005
- Posts
- 9,754
- Location
- Southampton, hopefully not too hot, or too cold
For me...
Travel time beyond that of typical time to go from home and normal office classed as work hours, to be taken account of, for contracted week hours (and potential overtime).
Mileage claim for distance travelled in excess of home to normal office.
Travel time beyond that of typical time to go from home and normal office classed as work hours, to be taken account of, for contracted week hours (and potential overtime).
Mileage claim for distance travelled in excess of home to normal office.
Soldato
- Joined
- 17 Jun 2012
- Posts
- 5,951
I'm a mobile worker with no fixed place of work and 10 hours of my week are unpaid travel time. I'm opted out of the WTD though.