Which 'health' grill?

smit101 said:
I live in The UK, we don't get 30 mins sunshine in a year!:p


I'd much rather obtain my Vitamin D from dietry sources anyway by eating fresh fish/pork etc and benefit from all of the other nutrients within these healthy foods.
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Vitamin D from dietary sources is very poorly absorbed by the body and exists in only few sources, although oily fishes is one of them.

http://cjasn.asnjournals.org/content/3/5/1548.abstract

(Take a look at the graph comparing supplementation to natural exposure)

The problem with heart disease and its relationship with fats is that the 2 are not solely linked. Many dietary, environmental and life style changes have been made over the years and simple associating all this to just fats is flawed. I am in total agreement here that people should be eating less processed fats as these are much more challenging metabolically for the body to handle, no argument there! Fats are still calories and if OP is looking to restrict intake then by all means why not reduce them?
 
Freefaller said:
So much truth. I'm really loving your stance on diet and nutrition :cool:

fats also may even boost testosterone production.

Carbs are fine - our bodies can cope with them fine - just not all the refined crap that is all around us giving us massive dangerous insulin spikes.
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Can you link peer reviewed scientific papers regarding these 2 statements please?

In particular the testosterone statement as I find it very hard to believe, excess testosterone is not always a good thing. Not once in my career of working in clinical biochemistry have I ever had to investigate a reduced or raised testosterone based on solely on fat intakes. 95% of the male population have testosterone that sits between 0.52-38.17nmol/L abnormalities in this are usually due to some form of disease NOT lack of fat or type of fat intake.
 
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Sider said:
Can you link peer reviewed scientific papers regarding these 2 statements please?

In particular the testosterone statement as I find it very hard to believe, excess testosterone is not always a good thing. Not once in my career of working in clinical biochemistry have I ever had to investigate a reduced or raised testosterone based on solely on fat intakes. 95% of the male population have testosterone that sits between 0.3-2.6nmol/L abnormalities in this are usually due to some form of disease NOT lack of fat or type of fat intake.
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I said potentially can. I didn't say it necessarily did. :) Lots of research both proving disproving it - I'm not using that as an argument FOR it - however, I know the OP is going to the gym and is trying to bulk up, and thought it was interesting. :) I'm not even stating anything about low test being a part of low fat. Don't add 1+1 to get 3.

As for the **** food statement - why does it need to be justified? You're not saying processed and refined foods are just as good as natural wholesome unprocessed foods are you? :confused:

I just hope you're not one of these "scientists" that propagates myths! ;)
 
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Freefaller said:
I said potentially can. I didn't say it necessarily did. :) Lots of research both proving disproving it - I'm not using that as an argument FOR it - however, I know the OP is going to the gym and is trying to bulk up, and thought it was interesting. :) I'm not even stating anything about low test being a part of low fat. Don't add 1+1 to get 3.

As for the **** food statement - why does it need to be justified? You're not saying processed and refined foods are just as good as natural wholesome unprocessed foods are you? :confused:

I just hope you're not one of these "scientists" that propagates myths! ;)
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Sorry for the confusion, I agree with you in terms of processed foods, these are bad should be avoided!

I try not to propagate myths no :P but I do work in clinical biochemistry and I am very familiar with topics such as Vitamins, Lipids, Insulin and metabolism as that is the area I work in. As for bulking up I shall leave that to you as I have no experiance in this area (sadly) :).

All that being said about processed food and the fact I know how bad they are for me, I am never going to give up bourbon biscuits! I simply love them too much ! :)

Interesting debate tho but we have slightly derailed this thread lol
 
Sider said:
Vitamin D from dietary sources is very poorly absorbed by the body and exists in only few sources, although oily fishes is one of them.
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This is why I try to eat fresh salmon or similar 2 or 3 times weekly and supplement daily with what I believe to be a high quality cod liver oil that has been tested to show high vitamin A & D levels, imo people living in similar climate to ours should do similar (although, not all cod liver oils are created equal and many brands are just a rip off, most have inadequate Vitiman A&D levels and have synthetic vitamins added which imo aren't as effective as the few good brands available, I'm not a great believer in taking food supplements but taking a high quality Cod liver oil supplement is imo wise for many people).

http://cjasn.asnjournals.org/content/3/5/1548.abstract

(Take a look at the graph comparing supplementation to natural exposure)
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I don't doubt that natural sun exposure is probably more effective at building natural vitamin D levels, but we live in a largely cool/cold climate and daily sun exposure just isn't possible for large portions of the year, as is the case in many parts of the world, so for all of us obtaining vitamin D from our diet is imo critical.

The problem with heart disease and its relationship with fats is that the 2 are not solely linked. Many dietary, environmental and life style changes have been made over the years and simple associating all this to just fats is flawed. I am in total agreement here that people should be eating less processed fats as these are much more challenging metabolically for the body to handle, no argument there! Fats are still calories and if OP is looking to restrict intake then by all means why not reduce them?
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I agree, although for weightloss it's all about calorie consumption and expenditure, cutting fat from the diet won't aid weightloss in itself and why deprive the body of the high nutritional value of unprocessed fats? Surely it would be more prudent to reduce sugar/carb consumption if weightloss is the aim, especially the refined/processed varieties.
 
smit101 said:
Vitiman A&D levels and have synthetic vitamins added which imo aren't as effective .
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Vitamin D is vitamin D, if its produced naturally or synthetically, structurally it is identical. A common misconception. The only difference is the type of vitamin D in supplementation. Some are cholecalciferol (D3) and others use ergocalciferol (D2). Some papers have suggested D2 has slightly less potency but I suspect there is little difference.

smit101 said:
I don't doubt that natural sun exposure is probably more effective at building natural vitamin D levels, but we live in a largely cool/cold climate and daily sun exposure just isn't possible for large portions of the year, as is the case in many parts of the world, so for all of us obtaining vitamin D from our diet is imo critical. .
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I agree climate plays a large part obviously but from my experience (and research) low levels tend to be seen in elderly (mainly due to other complications such as liver disease) or those that that cover large areas of the skin (often for religious reasons). There of course will be seasonal variation but the vast majority of people will be able to maintain sufficient levels. Eating fresh oily fish is by no means a bad thing though and good for you for doing it! :)

smit101 said:
I agree, although for weight loss it's all about calorie consumption and expenditure, cutting fat from the diet won't aid weight loss in itself and why deprive the body of the high nutritional value of unprocessed fats? Surely it would be more prudent to reduce sugar/carb consumption if weight loss is the aim, especially the refined/processed varieties.
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Possibly, I’m no weight loss expert.
 
I've enjoyed this discussion with you Sider :) Look forward to more nutrition-type conversations in future :)

I take vit D supplements (D3) ;) 5000IU as I really don't get enough sun, and from what I've studied/learned it's just pure goodness.
 
Freefaller said:
I've enjoyed this discussion with you Sider :) Look forward to more nutrition-type conversations in future :)

I take vit D supplements (D3) ;) 5000IU as I really don't get enough sun, and from what I've studied/learned it's just pure goodness.
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5000 ?! do you take that every day? I think the recommended is 5ug (200IU) for over 24s

The pharmacological dose is 1200-2000 hehe. That said, vitamin D toxicity is rare and as long as your serum calcium is ok I don't see any harm :)

Just seen a case where 100,000 IU caused toxicity so I think your safe :)
 
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Sider said:
Vitamin D is vitamin D, if its produced naturally or synthetically, structurally it is identical. A common misconception. The only difference is the type of vitamin D in supplementation. Some are cholecalciferol (D3) and others use ergocalciferol (D2). Some papers have suggested D2 has slightly less potency but I suspect there is little difference.
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I'll bow to your greater knowledge on that, but I'd still much rather have the non-synthetic variety if possible.:p I don't know, maybe I'm just paranoid, but imo the natural substance will always offer benefits that synthetics can't, maybe benefits that you & your science are yet able see.(I don't mean that patronisingly):) But synthetic or not, some cod liver oils just don't contain enough vitamin A or D to offer therapeutic doses, so imo you need to be careful which one you buy.


I agree climate plays a large part obviously but from my experience (and research) low levels tend to be seen in elderly (mainly due to other complications such as liver disease) or those that that cover large areas of the skin (often for religious reasons). There of course will be seasonal variation but the vast majority of people will be able to maintain sufficient levels. Eating fresh oily fish is by no means a bad thing though and good for you for doing it! :)
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I'd love to get more sun exposure, I'm sure most of us would, but personally I can't afford holidays in the sun very often and when it's sunny here I'm usually at work or sleeping off a nightshift, so it's fresh fish and cod liver oil for me.

What about sun lamps/sun beds etc, can these in your opinion offer any benefit in producing vitamin D? If we can produce synthetic Vit D supplements that are effective, how about reproducing the suitable light wavelengths required for vit D production? I don't know maybe sunbeds etc already offer this, never really looked into it tbh.
 
I would highly recommend against the use of sun beds for any reason! The potential harm for using them will be FAR worse than being slightly Vitamin D deficient.

I really wouldn’t worry; I think if you were all to have your levels measured you would all be fine. Do you feel ok? Then that’s all that matters. Like I said deficiency is uncommon in the healthy population especially in those with an excellent diet (oily fish etc)
 
Sider said:
I would highly recommend against the use of sun beds for any reason! The potential harm for using them will be FAR worse than being slightly Vitamin D deficient.

I really wouldn’t worry; I think if you were all to have your levels measured you would all be fine. Do you feel ok? Then that’s all that matters. Like I said deficiency is uncommon in the healthy population especially in those with an excellent diet (oily fish etc)
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That's good to know, never had my vit D levels tested but I feel well and never succumb to the seasonal colds/flu's etc, so I'm assuming the fresh fish/cod liver oil and natural diet is serving me well.

I may try that bourbon diet you're on, does it work well?:p

But seriously, I wouldn't mind having my levels checked, is it as simple as providing a blood sample and then paying for testing/analysis or can it be done free of charge?
 
+1 to having to clean it *immediately* after use. I went a bit slack with mine after being quite fastidious with it at first, the non stick coating ended up coming off. Still usable though.
 
smit101 said:
That's good to know, never had my vit D levels tested but I feel well and never succumb to the seasonal colds/flu's etc, so I'm assuming the fresh fish/cod liver oil and natural diet is serving me well.

I may try that bourbon diet you're on, does it work well?:p

But seriously, I wouldn't mind having my levels checked, is it as simple as providing a blood sample and then paying for testing/analysis or can it be done free of charge?
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You can pay to have it measured in some pharmacies but the method used will be utter ****e and likely give you an inaccurate result. Try asking your GP but he/she might try and charge if there is no clinical suspicion.
 
Yeah calcium levels are in check. I drink lots of water and do a lot of weight training, and my foods aren't particularly calcium rich (I don't tend to drink/eat much dairy) but do eat a lot of cruciferous veg and nuts which does contain calcium. Put it this way, it's balanced enough so that my body doesn't seem to be an issue. I had some bloods done, a while back and I have good red blood cell concentration, low HDL cholesterol, and generally all seems good. Not hypertensive either.

I tend to only supplement vit d in the winter months or if I'm not getting much sunshine - I don't take it daily.
 
Sider said:
You can pay to have it measured in some pharmacies but the method used will be utter ****e and likely give you an inaccurate result. Try asking your GP but he/she might try and charge if there is no clinical suspicion.
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Haven't seen a GP in years (I hope that's not tempting providence). My original one from childhood died!:eek: (he was old). So I'm not sure I'm even registered with one anymore, I'll have to check that out. Thanks.
 
Freefaller said:
Yeah calcium levels are in check. I drink lots of water and do a lot of weight training, and my foods aren't particularly calcium rich (I don't tend to drink/eat much dairy) but do eat a lot of cruciferous veg and nuts which does contain calcium. Put it this way, it's balanced enough so that my body doesn't seem to be an issue. I had some bloods done, a while back and I have good red blood cell concentration, low HDL cholesterol, and generally all seems good. Not hypertensive either.

I tend to only supplement vit d in the winter months or if I'm not getting much sunshine - I don't take it daily.
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Good stuff, Vit Ds actions on calcium and calcium regulation itself is a little more complicated than just diet but I won’t bore you to death with yet more science :)
 
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