Who will fix this? Phone line through window frame, window is getting replaced..

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Soldato
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Ok, so we moved into our new place a couple of weeks ago. First on the list was to replace the bay windows because they were sealed/painted shut, only single glazed and generally crap. Long story short, we've had them measured, they're now on order and will be installed in 8-10 weeks.

So, the guy mentioned this, but it's just sunk in that they will be removing the entire frame (back to the brick) and our flippin' phone line has been drilled through this. So the internet and phone will presumably just stop working. Great.

Pics: https://imgur.com/VFcSVxK and https://imgur.com/eO5Wztx

Not sure if this is a thread for the Home & Garden forum but what's the best course of action here? The window people aren't going to be interested in drilling the cables through the wall properly.

I'm on a Sky staff account. Is it worth contacting them first? Will they be interested? Will they escalate to Openreach? Presumably they'd only do that once it stops working right? Then charge us £200 odd? Will Openreach drill through the wall and do it properly?

Or should we find a proper cabling company that does network/TV/satellite etc.? :confused:

It's annoying because we're doing major renovations to the house next year and I'm sure this could be done by that contractor (they've already mentioned tidying existing Sky cables which were chucked over the roof) but obviously we can't go without internet etc. until then!
 
Can you not just get them to be careful when removing the window etc and remove the cable and then drill a hole further down and feed it back in and then re-terminate it at the back of the socket you moved down the wall about a foot. If it doesn't work once you have done that then you just raise it as a fault ;)
 
Dave85 said:
Can you not just get them to be careful when removing the window etc and remove the cable and then drill a hole further down and feed it back in and then re-terminate it at the back of the socket you moved down the wall about a foot. If it doesn't work once you have done that then you just raise it as a fault ;)
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Yeah. But I'm not sure the window company would be interested in doing that. We have another contractor coming before the window people to look at fixing the crumbling window sill outside so we could ask him about it.

The new windows are uPVC so they can't drill through them. They'd have to go through the wall which again I'm not sure if the window people would be interested in handling :confused:

Girlfriend seems to think that there's a massive waiting time for Openreach. So if we 'broke' it and raised a fault we may be without internet for a few weeks. Can't do that as we're working from home!
 
You are not allowed to touch the primary BT socket.
Yes, BT will charge for a callout to move it ( Sky will just book a call from BT ).
However, the simple solution is to move the socket further down the wall ( assuming the BT cable originates from lower down, otherwise just move it in whatever direction gives you some spare cable to run through the wall ) and drill right through the wall and run the BT cable through the hole. With a BT insertion tool it's a really easy job. Whether you choose to do that yourself or get BT in, that's up to you. If you move it just don't tell them you did it or they will freak out.
 
pp111 said:
You are not allowed to touch the primary BT socket.
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How would they know? :)

pp111 said:
With a BT insertion tool it's a really easy job. Whether you choose to do that yourself or get BT in, that's up to you. If you move it just don't tell them you did it or they will freak out.
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You don't even need a BT Insertion tool with the latest master socket/faceplate, as they have camlock connectors that don't need them (which the OP could do with updating to anyway)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184648955469

pp111 said:
However, the simple solution is to move the socket further down the wall ( assuming the BT cable originates from lower down, otherwise just move it in whatever direction gives you some spare cable to run through the wall ) and drill right through the wall and run the BT cable through the hole.
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Potential issues could be that the cable will be too short, as ideally that "joiner" could do with being removed as well (and the cable going straight through the wall into the new master socket). The other issue could be that the dropcable is that old it may be brittle and could be damaged by movement.

Personally I'd do it myself - any issues report it as a fault and blame it on the Window installer (with a bit of luck you'll get a sympathetic engineer who will be equally as unimpressed as you, at it having been put through a window frame in the first place, and they may waive the charge)
 
From my time working with Openreach engineers and dealing with issues with the sockets if you move the socket (not a difficult job) they would never know or even if they did they suspect are not allowed to accuse you. Just move it and update to the latest socket as above. Worst case you phone and book an engineer. The charge used to be £140 so it may have gone up. And if your worried about losing access and its critical you continue to get the internet. If your in a cable area they do rolling monthly contracts aimed at students. Or get a 4g mobile router or even tether phones. If your working from home and its critical for both you should ideally have a backup plan and connection anyway.
 
If you don't fancy doing it yourself then your ISP can order a product to relocate your master socket from Openreach, that will dispatch an engineer to do what you require.
 
Thanks guys. I had noted a recommended company that specialises in AV/satellite/aerial/CCTV installs and cabling. They offer the below copy/paste;

£129 for Broadband Optimisation package (BT charge £156 just for engineer call out!) This is available on ALL broadband providers

Are you frustrated by your broadband speeds, wifi coverage and internet reliability?
If "Yes" there are many ways we can improve your broadband performance by:
  • Installing the latest dedicated BT master socket 5C
  • Replacing all old cabling / extensions / junction boxes which dilute your broadband speed
  • Moving of master socket if needed for better wifi coverage
  • New BT drop cable from junction box on property if needed
  • Router + settings update to optimise speed and wifi coverage
  • Before and after speed test comparisons on every job
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If you're not supposed to touch the BT socket how come plenty of companies offer services like that?

And if I'm most likely to incur a £156 callout charge from Openreach why wouldn't I use a private company that'll (probably) do a better job and be easier to get in touch with? :)
 
If you're not comfortable doing it yourself then that's a decent option


Scam said:
If you're not supposed to touch the BT socket how come plenty of companies offer services like that?
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Because BT of old used to try and play the "legal threat card" for everything to protect "their" network (These days they can't get away with it so much as they have more competition).

In reality though as long as the work is done by someone competent, then they are never going to know (as they don't keep track of Master socket types or locations within a property)
 
As above I would do it myself, but if you're not sure about doing that then yes just get a company in to do it for you.
 
Find a local TV aerial installer or telephone/network installer.
It's something I would've done in the past and is relatively simple, 6mm drill and your good to go.

Otherwise the window installers will just plonk the new frame on top of the wire in theory but will not be held accountable for damaging the wire at all.

But a local installer should do it for 30 - 45 quid for just a relocation.

The other side is that perhaps you could "create a fault" by damaging the cable outside and requesting that your master socket be upgraded to the newest one and the wire moved? but it'll need to look like a wear and tear fault lol and you could be without service until an engineer visits.

I'd recommend the local installer and get it moved.
 
Scam said:
Thanks guys. I had noted a recommended company that specialises in AV/satellite/aerial/CCTV installs and cabling. They offer the below copy/paste;

If you're not supposed to touch the BT socket how come plenty of companies offer services like that?

And if I'm most likely to incur a £156 callout charge from Openreach why wouldn't I use a private company that'll (probably) do a better job and be easier to get in touch with? :)
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Sounds like a load of smoke n mirrors mate.

Remove socket face, take a pic of where the cables go - remove cable.
Drill a hole in the wall yourself feed cable thru
Put cables back where they were, its 2 terminations iirc ad I've done them before with a butter knife haha

Id suggest allowing for a loop of cable externally to avoid water tracking down the cable and into your brickwork

Do you have a load of extensions? Or do you use cordless handsets with one base unit? There's that part out of the way!

I'd certainly not be paying someone over 100 quid just to terminate a few cables.
 
Okay. So those saying its BT Engineers they are not, they Are Openreach. (Yes a Subsidiary of the BT Group, the same as EE, BT, BT Business, and Plusnet but all separate legal entities in their own right)

The prices being thrown around on here are inaccurate, the SP's for residential services will normally absorb some of the cost, and in some instances all (BT Halo Packages for example). The fact Thats old star wiring and is labelled GPO (General Post office) its highly unlikely an engineer would mark it down as damage and probably write the job off as "General Wear and Tear"

With the wiring being so old its more than likely beneficial for a new Lead-in/drop wire to be installed

Remember Openreach DO NOT Charge the End User for its services, they charge the SP and the SP then chooses what to then charge their customers. Full costs are normally only passed onto Business Users.

If a local person does it they might make the internal wiring sound but if the lead in is degraded, it will need to be joined at some point probably externally and possibly impact service, and if not done to a quality standard on any subsequent visit a charge from your SP could be raised at a later date meaning you've paid twice.

Check https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband to see when FTTP will become available to you and make the move as by 2025/6 the goal is to have all copper lines stopped.
 
Scam said:
If you're not supposed to touch the BT socket how come plenty of companies offer services like that?
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It is a liability issue - rather than it being illegal to touch anything behind the BT socket though BT prefer you don't. Companies will have their own liability coverage (assuming they are doing things properly). In theory if something happens, accident or whatever, on the BT side of the demarcation point and you'd messed with the wiring you could be held liable, if you haven't touched it there would be no comeback on you - though you'd still be liable if you did something like feed mains voltage into the BT network :s
 
BT will maintain and cover issues with the wire from the exchange to the master socket. Anything beyond that is down to the end user.
As they maintain the wire upto (and including the master socket) any 3rd party tampering *could* lead to a charge that may otherwise have not been needed.
I.E. socket is moved but the wire is now too short and needs extending, this may work well initially but if it developes a fault and BT (openreach) call out, then it is highly likely you'll be charged as they would need to now run a new cable from the nearest connection point (pole?) to the master socket, even if that was not the cause of the fault.

It's purely about maintenance.

Yes you can move your socket, but if it obvious that work was carried out and BT (openreach) called out for a fault they would need to restore it to a condition that they could then cover.
 
i might be wrong but i think BT see it as their property / equipment and your not really allowed to mess with it although it looks like a cowboy set it up through the window in the first place. I would contact them and try to get them out to sort something out for you. Either that or DIY after watching youtube videos lol
 
Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
Just do it yourself if your even remotely competent

https://www.btengineerlondon.co.uk/can-i-move-my-master-bt-socket/
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As per further into the article there are reasons why not just anyone should change things around from the rear of the master socket back into the BT side:

If the cable comes from overhead,
“Do Not” lower its height,
there are legal safety heights to respect.
Attach to where it meets your property and reroute to where you want it.
Click to expand...

And it is generally better to get someone to do it who knows what they are doing.

It isn't illegal to move the socket or change the wiring but there are various regulations and more importantly potential liability issues (cost or legal) involved which anyone who does it should be aware of. In an electrical sense competent (as is mentioned casually a lot in that article) actually has a proper meaning (i.e. https://www.electricalcompetentperson.co.uk/ ) and not just anyone doing what they think is a careful job. Even doing a careful and thorough job doesn't mean you are absolved of any potential liability issues*.

The BT network demarcation point is the NTE not the property boundary - but you still have a responsibility for maintaining the quality of the wiring inside the boundary of your property. The property boundary is just a cost demarcation.


* At the end of the day you could still be liable anyhow if something you did on the customer side of the demarcation point caused a problem in the BT network, but it opens you up to far more potential issues if you do stuff on the BT side.
 
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Rroff said:
As per further into the article there are reasons why not just anyone should change things around from the rear of the master socket back into the BT side:



And it is generally better to get someone to do it who knows what they are doing.

It isn't illegal to move the socket or change the wiring but there are various regulations and more importantly potential liability issues (cost or legal) involved which anyone who does it should be aware of. In an electrical sense competent (as is mentioned casually a lot in that article) actually has a proper meaning (i.e. https://www.electricalcompetentperson.co.uk/ ) and not just anyone doing what they think is a careful job. Even doing a careful and thorough job doesn't mean you are absolved of any potential liability issues*.

The BT network demarcation point is the NTE not the property boundary - but you still have a responsibility for maintaining the quality of the wiring inside the boundary of your property. The property boundary is just a cost demarcation.


* At the end of the day you could still be liable anyhow if something you did on the customer side of the demarcation point caused a problem in the BT network, but it opens you up to far more potential issues if you do stuff on the BT side.
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I dont think hes talking of messing with it from the perspective of lowering the cable is he, just drilling through the wall to avoid the frame.
From my experience overheads join around eaves height and then are clipped down the wall so its not going anywhere, so yeah if you hes moving it at that level then he needs to make sure he doesnt lower it since the risk is a H&S one
I would agree if hes messing with the cable reaching joining hsi property but again I am pretty sure that not what hes talking about

His biggest issue is that that GPO socket predates 1981 and as such the wiring is oooold. It could be broken down that the insulation falls off the moment he touches it, at that point openreach will replace it anyway
if it doesnt all he needs to do is drill a hole in the wall, disconnect from the GPO socket, pull the wire through, push the wire back through the wall. Unscrew the GPO socket, move it below the windowsill and put the old wire back in.
He could go further and eliminate the GPO socket by wire matching. That GPO socket is what predates the plug n play sockets introduced in 1981. Up until that point the GPO would hard wire the phone into that.
The fact that the GPO socket is still there leads to me think its probably not been an openreach (or BT previously) install but one someone has done themselves to remove the old phone and install a "modern" socket, probably so they could use a del boy type cordless ;)
 
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