Why do we spell licence / license differently?

Rich_L · 20 Jul 2007 at 15:02

Ugh, on review rightly/wrongly are horrible words, I much prefer correctly/incorrectly

Dracata · 20 Jul 2007 at 15:02

mctiny said:
It is amazing what you find on Wikipedia.org

QFE

Seems some people get a bit up themselves sometimes.

Inquisitor · 20 Jul 2007 at 15:03

VIRII said:
Emphasis of the word was specifically to draw your attention to it as you appear to be having difficulty seeing. Larger letters for weaker eyesight

Nice ad hominem there.

VIRII said:
Oh now we've invented "british english" have we?

Americans speak their own version of English, we speak ours. You may argue ours to be the 'proper' version, but regardless, there is a need for a different term for each is there not?

VIRII said:
I guess there are also no failures just deferred successes?

Tell me, what does the concept of 'deferred success' have to do with this thread?

VIRII said:
There is English and there are other people who can't quite manage English who bastardise the language. You can try and excuse their lack of English skill if you wish but it doesn't wash.

I very much doubt you truly believe that the differences between American English and British English arose from their 'lack of English skill'.

VIRII · 20 Jul 2007 at 15:06

Rich_L said:
Ugh, on review rightly/wrongly are horrible words, I much prefer correctly/incorrectly

Use them then

mctiny · 20 Jul 2007 at 15:10

Dracata said:
QFE

Seems some people get a bit up themselves sometimes.

QFE

I did a little research on this before as I will be using the subject of "American and British English language differences" for my students here in Brasil.

VIRII · 20 Jul 2007 at 15:11

Inquisitor said:
Nice ad hominem there.

Strange how you missed this one which seems far ruder to me....

Dracata said:
QFE

Seems some people get a bit up themselves sometimes.

Maybe I need to put that quote in much larger letters to enable you to notice it......

Inquisitor said:
Americans speak their own version of English, we speak ours. You may argue ours to be the 'proper' version, but regardless, there is a need for a different term for each is there not?

Is there? The language that they attempt to speak is English, the language of the English people. Their sucess or lack sucess in speaking and writing it correctly doesn't result in a new language simply in English written poorly.

Inquisitor said:
Tell me, what does the concept of 'deferred success' have to do with this thread?

It is just another example of the recent trend in education to pretend there is nothing wrong with these dreadfully poor standards of language, education and so on.

Inquisitor said:
I very much doubt you truly believe that the differences between American English and British English arose from their 'lack of English skill'.

I believe these differences (which are far too minor to warrant a whole new language) are mostly phonetic.

Vonhelmet · 20 Jul 2007 at 15:12

I've always thought that licence is a noun and license is a verb, except that it appears that Americans use licence for both.

I've just checked Chambers and they think the same...

Likewise for practise (verb) and practice (noun).

VIRII · 20 Jul 2007 at 15:13

mctiny said:
QFE

I did a little research on this before as I will be using the subject of "American and British English language differences" for my students here in Brasil.

On that subject Brazil is another word that has alternative spellings. Apparently the English spelling is BraZil whilst the Spanish spelling is Brasil.
According to some dictionary entries the official spelling is with a Z.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil

Masterdog · 20 Jul 2007 at 15:15

VIRII said:
The language that they attempt to speak is English, the language of the English people. Their sucess or lack sucess in speaking and writing it correctly doesn't result in a new language simply in English written poorly.

English isn't the language only of the English people. We don't own it - it evolved from a collection of Germanic languages I believe. We're not the guardians of it and we don't have any right to dictate how it should be spoken simply because it takes its name from this country.

VIRII · 20 Jul 2007 at 15:16

vonhelmet said:
I've always thought that licence is a noun and license is a verb, except that it appears that Americans use licence for both.

I've just checked Chambers and they think the same...

Likewise for practise (verb) and practice (noun).

Americans use the S in all versions of the word.
Licence is a verb in English.
License is not a word in English.
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/results.asp?searchword=license

Vonhelmet · 20 Jul 2007 at 15:18

VIRII said:
Americans use the S in all versions of the word.
Licence is a verb in English.
License is not a word in English.
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/results.asp?searchword=license

Dictionary fight!

The OED also cites it as originating from practise/practice.

Also, looking down the link you mentioned that I've quoted... Licence appears as a noun on that page, and license is mentioned as a verb, with no indication that it is US only... :confused:

VIRII · 20 Jul 2007 at 15:21

Masterdog said:
English isn't the language only of the English people. We don't own it - it evolved from a collection of Germanic languages I believe. We're not the guardians of it and we don't have any right to dictate how it should be spoken simply because it takes its name from this country.

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. English is an amalgamation of lots of dialects from Anglo Saxon to Roman to French and Greek (among others of course).
It has a correct form and an incorrect form. There are correct spellings and incorrect spellings. There is correct grammar and incorrect grammar. There is correct punctuation and incorrect punctuation. Whether you like it or not there are rules regarding the correct use of this language. Very hard and fast rules. It is not a question of ownership simple a question of being correct or not being correct.
English has been formalised for a great many years and taught in schools for a great many years. English was exported to America when we colonised (with an "s") America. If they have since lost track of how to use the language properly and how to spell certain words then that does not make them "right".

Inquisitor · 20 Jul 2007 at 15:22

VIRII said:
Is there? The language that they attempt to speak is English, the language of the English people.

You'd be rather naïve to expect a single standard to be adhered over time to in all countries and cultures that speak a given language over extended periods of time.

VIRII said:
Their sucess or lack sucess in speaking and writing it correctly doesn't result in a new language simply in English written poorly.

Is that suppose to be ironic?

Besides, you're right; it results in a new dialect or variation of the language being formed. We call this American English.

VIRII said:
It is just another example of the recent trend in education to pretend there is nothing wrong with these dreadfully poor standards of language, education and so on.

It's not a dreadfully poor standard; it's a different standard. American English is correct in America, just not here.

mctiny · 20 Jul 2007 at 15:24

VIRII said:
On that subject Brazil is another word that has alternative spellings. Apparently the English spelling is BraZil whilst the Spanish spelling is Brasil.
According to some dictionary entries the official spelling is with a Z.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil

Not sure why you mention "Spanish" but over here they speak Portuguese

here they spell Brazil Brasil. "when in Rome..." I say.

Masterdog · 20 Jul 2007 at 15:24

VIRII said:
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. English is an amalgamation of lots of dialects from Anglo Saxon to Roman to French and Greek (among others of course).
It has a correct form and an incorrect form. There are correct spellings and incorrect spellings. There is correct grammar and incorrect grammar. There is correct punctuation and incorrect punctuation. Whether you like it or not there are rules regarding the correct use of this language. Very hard and fast rules. It is not a question of ownership simple a question of being correct or not being correct.
English has been formalised for a great many years and taught in schools for a great many years. English was exported to America when we colonised (with an "s") America. If they have since lost track of how to use the language properly and how to spell certain words then that does not make them "right".

Are you saying that we are using precisely the same form of English that we used when we conolised America? We corrupt the language as much as anyone else - claiming that our changed version of it is right just because we 'invented' it is wrong.

VIRII · 20 Jul 2007 at 15:26

vonhelmet said:
Dictionary fight!

The OED also cites it as originating from practise/practice.

LOL

Chambers make the distinction between US and UK spellings.
OED states that the S version arose by analogy with other words but doesn't note the UK and US versions.

Both are a little compact for the full picture I guess. The wiki entry quoted earlier is better.

The origin is from "licence" which did not follow the same pattern as "practice" but because some people in America did not realiSe (with an "s") this they bastardised the verb.

In English it is "to licence". If you are American we expect lesser standards so write it anyway you like. Even replace lots of "s" 's with Z's.

VIRII · 20 Jul 2007 at 15:26

Masterdog said:
Are you saying that we are using precisely the same form of English that we used when we conolised America? We corrupt the language as much as anyone else - claiming that our changed version of it is right just because we 'invented' it is wrong.

Are you saying that the word "licence" was invented AFTER we colonised (with an s) America?

Shackley · 20 Jul 2007 at 15:29

VIRII said:
You are indeed wrong.
Try www.dictionary.com

How odd that you should choose not to reference one of the dictionaries from our fine British academic institutions but one from the USA :confused:

Looking at Cambridge Dictionaries Online, we get

licence UK, US license
noun
1 [C] an official document which gives you permission to own, do or use something, usually after you have paid money and/or taken a test:
a dog licence
a UK driving licence/US driver's license
a TV licence

2 [S or U] FORMAL permission or freedom to do what you want:
As parents, they allowed their children very little licence.
[+ to infinitive] He was given licence to reform the organization.

3 artistic/poetic licence the freedom of artists, writers etc. to change the facts of the real world when producing art

license
verb
to give someone official permission to do or have something:
[+ to infinitive] Several companies have been licensed to sell these products. Link

Which, since it distinguishes between the UK & US spellings in the case of the noun but not of the verb, would seem to suggest that you are talking through your hat :rolleyes:

Masterdog · 20 Jul 2007 at 15:30

Are you saying that the word "licence" was invented AFTER we colonised (with an s) America?

No, I'm saying there are other words in existence back then that we've changed since, just like the Americans have (the aforementioned gaol being one of them).

VIRII · 20 Jul 2007 at 15:31

Inquisitor said:
It's not a dreadfully poor standard; it's a different standard. American English is correct in America, just not here.

Here? Do you mean in the UK? Have you seen the thread title? It uses the word "we". Do you think that refers to a bunch of British people or a bunch of American people? By your use of "here" I assume you mean British people.

So as the thread title is "Why do *we* spell licence / license differently?" the answer is as stated *we* do NOT. Hence it is incorrect.