Why does a 10900K FEEL faster than a 13900K?

[humbug]

On Inter-core communication.

Remember that Zen 2 (Ryzen 3000 series) the gaming performance at the same clock speed is about the same as Coffee Lake, its just that Coffeelake had much high clocks so much higher gaming performance.

Move forward to Zen 3 where AMD reworked Infinity Fabric the gaming performance vs Zen 2 difference was massive, up to 50% faster, the Ryzen 5000 series was also faster in games than the higher clocked 10900K, the difference is in the Inter-core communication latency, its very much faster than Zen 2 and to a lesser extent Coffee Lake.
People think of AMD's Infinity Fabric as the thing that's slow, not since Zen 3 its not.

The IOH is something entirely different, its what manages the communication between everything attached to the motherboard and the CPU.

 

[Tetras]

I’m assuming 11th gen would also be on the cpu?
Asking as I just picked one up lol

Seeing as it runs on the same boards as 10th gen, even though it's a different architecture, I'd assume they couldn't move anything off the CPU, unless they predicted the change in advance and built it into 10th gen boards.

 

[Rroff]

IIRC stuff is moved to the "uncore" (and/or another package on the same substrate) not off the CPU.

I've not tried a 13th gen CPU with Windows 11 to see what it is like there but I have some experience of the 11th gen under Windows 10 and I could live with it but it isn't ideal - some people will probably be a lot less sensitive to it than I am. While I have the choice I've leaned towards older systems where there is less of an issue or not an issue.

 

[G J]

Hmm I still run my OS from a HDD but I've noticed a change when I had my 8700K setup when running Windows 7 and Windows 10 as 10 feels worse especially out of the box which is why I went through the process of stripping out the bloat and **** from it. Shame Bryan did not do any testing from one of his slimlined installs that hes done videos on.

The slowdown, long wait or stuttering whatever people want to call it in the Tech YES City video using Windows I pretty much never had an issue with on Windows 7 and when it happens on Windows 10 I put it mainly down to Windows or my HDD being the slowest part of the system but it seems that Bryan's system slows down to a crawl even with an SSD. Does this happen on macOS/linux?

Intresting though when I upgraded to a 12600K and now a 13600K system response seemed to get better than the 8700k system I had before even though I'm still using the same RAM and HDD.

 

[Tetras]

The IOH controller is the thing that controlles your keyboard, your mouse, your joystick.... they moved it off the CPU, presumably to save space on the CPU package and farmed it out to the motherboard vendor, made them take the cost, the result is the IOH is much further away from the CPU and has a lot of motherboard circulatory to go through, that's what's causing the lag, lag being a delay, delays can also cause a backup bottleneck of data and then you get stuttering.

Is any of this actually confirmed yet, or is it still just his theory?

 

[turbot1984]

With Comet Lake does ring bus default to base clock with no OC? I leave on Auto anyway as I don't like tampering with my Ring, if the Mods will pardon my french.

 

[Rroff]

Hmm I still run my OS from a HDD but I've noticed a change when I had my 8700K setup when running Windows 7 and Windows 10 as 10 feels worse especially out of the box which is why I went through the process of stripping out the bloat and **** from it. Shame Bryan did not do any testing from one of his slimlined installs that hes done videos on.

The slowdown, long wait or stuttering whatever people want to call it in the Tech YES City video using Windows I pretty much never had an issue with on Windows 7 and when it happens on Windows 10 I put it mainly down to Windows or my HDD being the slowest part of the system but it seems that Bryan's system slows down to a crawl even with an SSD. Does this happen on macOS/linux?

Intresting though when I upgraded to a 12600K and now a 13600K system response seemed to get better than the 8700k system I had before even though I'm still using the same RAM and HDD.

Windows 10 is definitely a significant issue in this respect - why my main productivity systems are still on 7 where possible - one of the systems in my productivity setup is a 10870H laptop with Windows 10 and it is a source of frustration the 7 setups aren't I was dual booting 11 on it for awhile but that was even worse with the level of tweaking I had to do to reverse some of the odd decisions, which didn't necessarily survive updates just making for more hassle than it was worth.

 

[MartinPrince]

Is any of this actually confirmed yet, or is it still just his theory?

It is still all just conjecture at this point so I'm not sure why some people are going on like the exact reason/cause for the stutter has been proven. All we know is that Brian had stutter/lag using a 13900k and it was gone when he went back to 10850K. He himself said he doesn't know for sure it is because of the IOH being moved but that's the theory he postulates.

 

[humbug]

It is still all just conjecture at this point so I'm not sure why some people are going on like the exact reason/cause for the stutter has been proven. All we know is that Brian had stutter/lag using a 13900k and it was gone when he went back to 10850K. He himself said he doesn't know for sure it is because of the IOH being moved but that's the theory he postulates.

Whose going to confirm it? Are Intel going to come out and say "yeah because we moved the IOH off the CPU" YTC spoke to engineers at Computex who said its because the IOH now resides on the Motherboard, it only happens on 12'th and 13'th gen, disabling E-Cores does not fix it, the only way to fix it is to go back to an older Intel system or a Ryzen system.

The trouble is if this is a problem, it seems to be, none of the large channels are talking about it, maybe because they are too daft to realise its not normal, they think it is normal, it must be something else, it can't be the Intel CPU, a lot of the large tech tubers are still in this mind set that Intel can do no wrong, even coffeelake vs Zen 3 a lot of them were still defaulting to the 10900K despite their own reviews showing just how far behind Intel was at that point. JayZ2Cents commented over and over again at how snappy and fast the Ryzen 7000 series felt compared to his main 12900K system, but that was it, he didn't question it beyond that and never put the two together, its just normal to him, a slight oddity, moving on, forgot about it the next day and continue using the 121900K system "meh"
They only cared about this technical term "latency" when their mates at Intel said to them hey look AMD's core "latency" is 0.0002 seconds higher than ours, that means higher "latency" in games (no its doesn't) hey lets make a video out of it and make the evidence fit the narrative...... Where as this actually does result in higher input latency and..... silence.

None of them know anything about anything and rely on Intel to tell them whats what, and Intel use that, which they should, if you're stupid enough to believe anything we say....

 

[Cyber-Mav]

Issue may not happen with a ps2 mouse and only happen on usb mouse?

 

[MartinPrince]

... the only way to fix it is to go back to an older Intel system or a Ryzen system.

No because I do not have the problems he is experiencing using Prem Pro, searching for mp3/movies or dragging and dropping files. Brian believes the problem is the IOH, saying as much in the first video but in the 2nd video he walks it back saying that he doesn't really know what the cause is.

 

[Cyber-Mav]

Pcie 5 issues?

 

[throwaway4372]

Same thing happens on my 6700K. Pretty sure Windows just sucks.

 

[Rroff]

Same thing happens on my 6700K. Pretty sure Windows just sucks.

Windows 10/11 is certainly a large part of it. It isn't unusual to boot up one of my Windows 10 systems and it is stuttery when I'm trying to get on with tasks because of background processes doing telemetry, maintenance/"optimisation", compatibility, etc. stuff for a good few minutes often using 100% of one CPU core for extended periods - something I never get with my Windows 7 systems. (Definitely not malware, etc.). But that happens with any CPU not just 11th gen Intels onwards.

I definitely notice a difference in overall system latency between older stuff and 11th gen onwards though, not to the extent of these videos, etc. but definitely something there. I've posted about it a few times in the past.

 

[jigger]

Same thing happens on my 6700K. Pretty sure Windows just sucks.

Indeed windows is full of fail. Intel speed step could be the problem with 6700K. Branch prediction can cause issues too.

 

[humbug]

If its a windows problem why am i not seeing it?

Win 11.

 

[Wing-Man]

If its a windows problem why am i not seeing it?

Win 11.

never am i, on intel 9th gen and Ryzen

 

[no_1_dave]

It's all software, the video is wrong.
I had the same issue that he was showing in the first video where file explorer was lagging etc, especially when selecting and moving video files

I turned off quicklinks in folders and disabled smartscreen (took ownership and re-named smartscreen.exe to smartscreen_old.exe).
The problem went away and file explorer is as snappy as ever.

Was obvious that it was a software (mainly windows 11 file explorer) issue because it would go away temporarily if I rebooted file explorer from task manager.

 

[Emlyn_Dewar]

Smartscreen is truly awful.

 

[Rroff]

It's all software, the video is wrong.
I had the same issue that he was showing in the first video where file explorer was lagging etc, especially when selecting and moving video files

I turned off quicklinks in folders and disabled smartscreen (took ownership and re-named smartscreen.exe to smartscreen_old.exe).
The problem went away and file explorer is as snappy as ever.

Was obvious that it was a software (mainly windows 11 file explorer) issue because it would go away temporarily if I rebooted file explorer from task manager.

Windows 10 and 11 have all kinds of stuff that can do this - some of the memory scanning/protection stuff, control flow guard, etc. can be terrible for it, sometimes the malware protection engine can get its knickers in a twist, etc.

But I disagree this entirely a software thing - a tuned pre-11th gen Intel system feels more responsive to me and I'm quite sensitive to it - I was talking about microstutter with SLI for instance before it was recognised as a thing even. Though as per my previous post it isn't something I couldn't live with, but with the options there of older systems I use them for productivity.