Why England fails all the time
- Thread starter J4K3 M
- Start date
Man of Honour
- Joined
- 15 Mar 2004
- Posts
- 28,140
- Location
- Liverpool
Remember we need more and more individual threads, to draw out the points already done to death in others.
Soldato
- Joined
- 7 Jan 2007
- Posts
- 10,607
- Location
- Sussex, UK
With only one or two English, if they even field any English players it hardly makes a difference.
I think there is something in the fact that we have no one playing abroad.
Soldato
- Joined
- 7 Jan 2007
- Posts
- 10,607
- Location
- Sussex, UK
MONEY IN PREMIERSHIP. Pennant is abroad because he has exhausted all prospects at English clubs, that and he got offered a lot of money
Derbyshire couldn't get regular football at Blacburn.
Last edited:
The facts you used to back up your opinion were wrong. All I did was point that out.
Just a bit of nitpicking @ the OP:
All of Italy's world cup squad came from Serie A
all bar one of Germany's squad came from the Bundesliga
as someone above mentioned 21 out of spain's 23 were from Liga BBVA
so it is facile to say that is the reason. As has been mentioned in other threads (it was Tummy iirc), the main problem is our lack of coaches. We have a pitiful dearth of talented, FIFA qualified coaches, and a footballing culture that produces athletic, unintelligent players. Look at the Spanish squad for this world cup and look how many quality playmakers there are in there; Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas, Xabi Alonso, Silva, Mata and there’s an embarrassment of players they didn’t take that are still wonderful, insightful passers of a football: Arteta, Granero, Guti, Cani, Capel, Cazorla, etc. etc etc.
We have Joe Cole, who sounds like he's imbred when he talks.
All of Italy's world cup squad came from Serie A
all bar one of Germany's squad came from the Bundesliga
as someone above mentioned 21 out of spain's 23 were from Liga BBVA
so it is facile to say that is the reason. As has been mentioned in other threads (it was Tummy iirc), the main problem is our lack of coaches. We have a pitiful dearth of talented, FIFA qualified coaches, and a footballing culture that produces athletic, unintelligent players. Look at the Spanish squad for this world cup and look how many quality playmakers there are in there; Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas, Xabi Alonso, Silva, Mata and there’s an embarrassment of players they didn’t take that are still wonderful, insightful passers of a football: Arteta, Granero, Guti, Cani, Capel, Cazorla, etc. etc etc.
We have Joe Cole, who sounds like he's imbred when he talks.
I'll tell you, the game from top to bottom is fundamentally broken, right from the top with the idiots at the FA .
Why do we never hear of FA youth championships?
Why is there no local FA run football club where young boys and young men can go and get coaching from a FA certified and salaried coach?
We are the only country with such a cash rich football administration and they do absolutely nothing of worth with it.
You want decent english players flooding the market, then get on to the FA to go and get them trained up, because they are out there they just dont have an opportunity.
Clubs wont help develop young english talent, they will just take and hire a body that can play football they dont care where it comes from.
Why do we never hear of FA youth championships?
Why is there no local FA run football club where young boys and young men can go and get coaching from a FA certified and salaried coach?
We are the only country with such a cash rich football administration and they do absolutely nothing of worth with it.
You want decent english players flooding the market, then get on to the FA to go and get them trained up, because they are out there they just dont have an opportunity.
Clubs wont help develop young english talent, they will just take and hire a body that can play football they dont care where it comes from.
English players playing in England has nothing to do with the failings of the national team. In fact the OP needs to turn this on it's head. Why aren't English players playing abroad. When Serie A was awash with with money the two players who prospered to a lesser or greater extent were Gazza (for his unpredictable creativity) and David Platt (for his technique). Same with La Liga now, so money is not the issue in inciting English player abroad. They simply aren't good enough.
Thats because the coaching system doesn't run like that. I am a youth coach at an FA Standard Development club. If I want to do more badges or qualifications then I can goto a whole host of clubs at either Manchester or Liverpool FA. You don't want the learning to be fed down from the FA, you want to the learning to come from your peers who are on your course with you. If you use the same minds that created the problem to fix it then were onto a hiding to nothing.
The other problem with this is that some people do their qualifications because they have to not because they want to. They get all the course material, do the drills and pass the test, yet these are the same idiots who you see every Saturday morning shouting and screaming at kids putting the result before the performance. Let me give you an example. last weekend my Under 8 A team played against our club's under 9 C team. Half time we are two nil up and we are competing well, holding the ball up and moving it around the field. All the work in the 2v2, 3v3 4v4 games we do in training is paying off because the kids are taking risks and making decisions. The other coach then brings on 4 of his A team players because he doesn't want to be defeated. Not his kids but him. We get beat 4-2 in the end and I can say hand on heart we played them off the park. That is from a UEFA Class B Qualified coach. Here's another example. I was speaking with another coach about how he goes about getting his team warmed up and he does the first 15 minutes of his hour session with the kids running round the pitch and sprinting. No ball skills or technique play. Then when you consider the time he spends talking and explaining the sessions, the kids are getting at best 30 minutes of ball time. Scandalous. I don't blame him though as he is as much a product of the coaching system as the kids are. He is enthusiastic, supportive and wants the kids to do better but hasn't been given the knowledge yet to pass onto the kids. There are too many coaches telling the kids what to do rather than facilitate a session that presents a problem and asking the kids to solve that problem.
The problems with English football are not at the top level it's the grassroots. Always has and always will be. The top English players are products of the the system that has been created. Ultimately The FA, fan's, players, managers, pundits and most importantly the media all think there is a quick fix to the problems of the national team and there isn't. What is needed is time, money and patience all with the kids coming through the system now to make them better players. Most importantly with all this money in the game more should be done for facilities. The hour a week I get in the winter and the two hours I get over summer a week coaching isn't going to make the next Wayne Rooney or Frank Lampard when you see the French, Spanish, Germans and Italians of a similar set up doing 4-5 hours a week.
As we seen from Englands performance at this years world cup the pressure and fear of failure was too much. The first game against America set a rythm of predictability because the players try and fast track the result and ultimately rush the ball up field to get the ball into the net. The longer the game goes the more anxious they get and the more they try and score the goal by hitting a big man up front to knock down to small forward. You then compare that to Argentina who have a Veron type player playing little balls all over the pitch and advancing play at various different tempo's whilst keeping the ball. It's embarrassing how far we are behind to other countries. It all goes back to what I was saying above about the problem solving, our system has produced athletes who can kick, pass, shoot and head. Very rarely has it produced a set of players who can do all that and think of a 10 different solutions to one problem.
atpbx said:
Thats because the coaching system doesn't run like that. I am a youth coach at an FA Standard Development club. If I want to do more badges or qualifications then I can goto a whole host of clubs at either Manchester or Liverpool FA. You don't want the learning to be fed down from the FA, you want to the learning to come from your peers who are on your course with you. If you use the same minds that created the problem to fix it then were onto a hiding to nothing.
The other problem with this is that some people do their qualifications because they have to not because they want to. They get all the course material, do the drills and pass the test, yet these are the same idiots who you see every Saturday morning shouting and screaming at kids putting the result before the performance. Let me give you an example. last weekend my Under 8 A team played against our club's under 9 C team. Half time we are two nil up and we are competing well, holding the ball up and moving it around the field. All the work in the 2v2, 3v3 4v4 games we do in training is paying off because the kids are taking risks and making decisions. The other coach then brings on 4 of his A team players because he doesn't want to be defeated. Not his kids but him. We get beat 4-2 in the end and I can say hand on heart we played them off the park. That is from a UEFA Class B Qualified coach. Here's another example. I was speaking with another coach about how he goes about getting his team warmed up and he does the first 15 minutes of his hour session with the kids running round the pitch and sprinting. No ball skills or technique play. Then when you consider the time he spends talking and explaining the sessions, the kids are getting at best 30 minutes of ball time. Scandalous. I don't blame him though as he is as much a product of the coaching system as the kids are. He is enthusiastic, supportive and wants the kids to do better but hasn't been given the knowledge yet to pass onto the kids. There are too many coaches telling the kids what to do rather than facilitate a session that presents a problem and asking the kids to solve that problem.
The problems with English football are not at the top level it's the grassroots. Always has and always will be. The top English players are products of the the system that has been created. Ultimately The FA, fan's, players, managers, pundits and most importantly the media all think there is a quick fix to the problems of the national team and there isn't. What is needed is time, money and patience all with the kids coming through the system now to make them better players. Most importantly with all this money in the game more should be done for facilities. The hour a week I get in the winter and the two hours I get over summer a week coaching isn't going to make the next Wayne Rooney or Frank Lampard when you see the French, Spanish, Germans and Italians of a similar set up doing 4-5 hours a week.
As we seen from Englands performance at this years world cup the pressure and fear of failure was too much. The first game against America set a rythm of predictability because the players try and fast track the result and ultimately rush the ball up field to get the ball into the net. The longer the game goes the more anxious they get and the more they try and score the goal by hitting a big man up front to knock down to small forward. You then compare that to Argentina who have a Veron type player playing little balls all over the pitch and advancing play at various different tempo's whilst keeping the ball. It's embarrassing how far we are behind to other countries. It all goes back to what I was saying above about the problem solving, our system has produced athletes who can kick, pass, shoot and head. Very rarely has it produced a set of players who can do all that and think of a 10 different solutions to one problem.
Caporegime
- Joined
- 18 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 33,188
English players are MORE than good enough to play abroad, but more often than not people want to live in their home towns, or play for the clubs they were fans of. ENglish culture is really very different to Italian/Spanish culture which is far more laid back and lets be honest, they speak a foreign language. Half the planet speaks English, very very few English people know Italian or Spanish and it would be far more difficult for people to adapt to play over there.
Older guys like Capello didn't grow up watching American tv, they don't know English as well(ranieri, Ancelloti, countless older guys have issues, younger people very rarely do).
English players simply don't want to play abroad in general, its not about ability, Finnan, and several other really quite crap players have ended up abroad, for them its about not having a preferential option to play in England so take what they can get.
As for the Op, couldn't be more wrong, as someone pointed out Italy have won, and they play mostly in Italy, Germans play mainly in Germany, never effected them in the slightest. Likewise Brazil used to win when they had no part(more or less) in European football 20-40 years ago, these days almost every Brazilian player.
THere is actual proof, simply by looking at whose won, as to how where you play and number of foreigners involved makes ZERO difference.
Something Southgate managed to think up, and completely ignore in his column was pretty interesting and hilarious he missed it.
He mentioned specifically that other countries have had succesfull managers for international teams, from ex players who were also successfull on the international stage.
Then he said we should keep Capello, who was part of a Italy team embarassed at the world cup and left being attacked by the press/country as being a pathetic showing.
But I did think it was very interesting, Dunga's not really got any experience, except at an international level as a player and yet has put together a working interesting team with the right balance with a great chance to win this world cup. There have been many other managers who've won World cup's and Euro's, who used to be successful players on the international stage.
Complex tactics and systems, trying to impose some quick authority by being overly strict and banning things during tournaments, its nonsense frankly, and it would seem to me what works at club level does NOT work at international level.
Thats not to say that we HAVE to have a manager whose won a world cup or a Euro, obviously a good adapative manager or a manager whose particular style suits the international setup, someone who keeps it easy to start with and has his players respect.
But someone who has done well with their international team, will have experience of how their manager at that point ran an international team, something Capello's never experienced, so you have to wonder exactly where he's going to draw his experience from, his team was a total flop that performed not as a team, but a bunch of individuals, with no balance and no quality and went out at the group stage I believe, when the individuals and success of those players was thought to be good enough to challenge for the cup.
Maybe we should be looking for someone who has at least seen what CAN work at the international stage, something Capello hasn't.
Older guys like Capello didn't grow up watching American tv, they don't know English as well(ranieri, Ancelloti, countless older guys have issues, younger people very rarely do).
English players simply don't want to play abroad in general, its not about ability, Finnan, and several other really quite crap players have ended up abroad, for them its about not having a preferential option to play in England so take what they can get.
As for the Op, couldn't be more wrong, as someone pointed out Italy have won, and they play mostly in Italy, Germans play mainly in Germany, never effected them in the slightest. Likewise Brazil used to win when they had no part(more or less) in European football 20-40 years ago, these days almost every Brazilian player.
THere is actual proof, simply by looking at whose won, as to how where you play and number of foreigners involved makes ZERO difference.
Something Southgate managed to think up, and completely ignore in his column was pretty interesting and hilarious he missed it.
He mentioned specifically that other countries have had succesfull managers for international teams, from ex players who were also successfull on the international stage.
Then he said we should keep Capello, who was part of a Italy team embarassed at the world cup and left being attacked by the press/country as being a pathetic showing.
But I did think it was very interesting, Dunga's not really got any experience, except at an international level as a player and yet has put together a working interesting team with the right balance with a great chance to win this world cup. There have been many other managers who've won World cup's and Euro's, who used to be successful players on the international stage.
Complex tactics and systems, trying to impose some quick authority by being overly strict and banning things during tournaments, its nonsense frankly, and it would seem to me what works at club level does NOT work at international level.
Thats not to say that we HAVE to have a manager whose won a world cup or a Euro, obviously a good adapative manager or a manager whose particular style suits the international setup, someone who keeps it easy to start with and has his players respect.
But someone who has done well with their international team, will have experience of how their manager at that point ran an international team, something Capello's never experienced, so you have to wonder exactly where he's going to draw his experience from, his team was a total flop that performed not as a team, but a bunch of individuals, with no balance and no quality and went out at the group stage I believe, when the individuals and success of those players was thought to be good enough to challenge for the cup.
Maybe we should be looking for someone who has at least seen what CAN work at the international stage, something Capello hasn't.
Soldato
- Joined
- 30 Nov 2005
- Posts
- 3,084
- Location
- London
Over reliance of foreign players in the Premier League is to blame.
How many times have we heard that a great English youngster has joined Chelsea, Man Utd, Arsenal etc but never gets a game, is released and joins a League 1 side?
How many times have we heard that a great English youngster has joined Chelsea, Man Utd, Arsenal etc but never gets a game, is released and joins a League 1 side?
Interesting to get insight from a proper coach Loki. 
I wonder if there is anyway we can make football intra-curricular rather than relying on clubs that can only work with kids outside of school time. The sixth-form college where my Dad teaches has its own football academy, where their time is divided fairly evenly between education and football, but I imagine this is far from the norm, and by the time they've got to that age (15-18) it's too little too late anyway. I assume football academies connected to football clubs aren't allowed to disrupt the kids' schooling when they're younger than that, I don't know?
At the moment we're relying on pushy parents or kids that bunk off school to play more football...haphazard. National academies are surely the answer, they have 8 in France, not just Clairefontaine, if I recall correctly, and our FA can't even manage it to build one. Instead we got a stadium built way late and overbudget by some hilarious Australian con men... grassroots in this country is depressing.
I wonder if there is anyway we can make football intra-curricular rather than relying on clubs that can only work with kids outside of school time. The sixth-form college where my Dad teaches has its own football academy, where their time is divided fairly evenly between education and football, but I imagine this is far from the norm, and by the time they've got to that age (15-18) it's too little too late anyway. I assume football academies connected to football clubs aren't allowed to disrupt the kids' schooling when they're younger than that, I don't know?
At the moment we're relying on pushy parents or kids that bunk off school to play more football...haphazard. National academies are surely the answer, they have 8 in France, not just Clairefontaine, if I recall correctly, and our FA can't even manage it to build one. Instead we got a stadium built way late and overbudget by some hilarious Australian con men... grassroots in this country is depressing.
Caporegime
- Joined
- 22 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 28,279
- Location
- Boston, Lincolnshire
I think there are several factors but I think the main one is the team do just not bond well together. Too much competition between clubs in the premier league might be a cause of this. I think the too many foreigners in the league is a mute point. Look at the team Manchester United fielded in their 1999 champions league final compared to their 2008 champions league final. Suprisingly with ten years difference there are more english players in the starting eleven.
Our teams have gotten worse and worse over the years. After our shocking game vs Germany I went back and watched this. The last great team we have had. 14 years ago!
Our teams have gotten worse and worse over the years. After our shocking game vs Germany I went back and watched this. The last great team we have had. 14 years ago!
Man of Honour
- Joined
- 29 Nov 2008
- Posts
- 13,322
- Location
- London
According to SSN
Haha. So 24 year old Rooney is dropped, while Ashley Cole who generally had a solid world cup is dropped? A Barry back from injury gets dropped due to one bad performance amongst very other very bad performances? Why are Johnson's awful performances excused? He was arguably the worst England player of the world cup.
Play that above team and England will struggle to qualify.
Play that above team and England will struggle to qualify.
Last edited: