Woman sentenced to prison for abortion.

[dowie]

This sounds, at face value, like something from one of those bum **** states in the US but it just happened in the UK, it's this case:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1667968579474432000

Sounds horrific right? Woman seeks out abortion pills during lockdown then gets charged... tweet is from the charity that supplied them, there has been a bit of outcry about this on social media today.

But, some details seem to be missing - she was originally charged with child destruction* then seems to have taken a guilty plea re: the abortion offense, end result is that she's received a 28 month sentence instead of a 36 month one if she'd gone to trial.

Perhaps more importantly it seems this was a 32 - 34 week pregnancy, people get emotive over abortion and I'm generally pro-choice but let's be realistic that's basically killing a baby IMO. The earliest premature baby to survive with current medical technology was at 21 weeks, at the time period we're talking about in this case you're looking at a greater than 95% chance of survival.

Anyway GD, what do you think about this case and/or abortion in general? Does being pro-choice for you mean that you're happy with no limits at all or do you think there should be a line drawn somewhere? I kinda get the impression that most people do in fact want some limit in place but a few who are pro-choice are hardcore until right before delivery.


*It's not clear from the reporting but does this charge indicate that the pills simply induced an early delivery and then the baby was killed/abandoned or did it die and was essentially a miscarriage... it seems kinda moot to me either way but I think for some people they have some hangup where if you kill the foetus/baby when it's still inside the mother it's OK but if an identical foetus/baby passes through the womb then that's a magical gateway and killing it on the outside is them murdering a baby.

 

[dowie]

No one should be made to have a child - for whatever reason. Like with anything, some will abuse that power, but to begin restricting it is a very slippery slope.

What do you mean "to begin restricting it is a very slippery slope."? This isn't a new thing that's been introduced, what exactly is the slippery slope here when it's been illegal for centuries?

 

[dowie]

I'm on the up to delivery side, I'd always favour the rights of the woman vs an unborn baby. Not sure what I think of the case, but that potential prison sentence is kinda mad. I think I'd lean more towards punishing the supplier of the abortion rather than the person taking the pills, but then how do you go about enforcing the cutoff if you can't see the patient...

Not sure what benefit putting this woman in prison brings to anyone.

Do you draw any distinction here between a 34-week-old foetus/baby being killed while still in the womb vs say a similar 34-week-old foetus/baby being born and then being killed (mother drowns or abandons it perhaps even though it's totally viable as a slightly early baby?

Ditto to a full-term baby? If a new mother of a fully cooked for 40 weeks baby decides to kill it right after birth is that something that deserves prison?

 

[dowie]

In reference to the desire to impose further restrictions

But this isn't the result of a new law and where is the desire to impose further restrictions in relation to either this case or the law used (which dates back to the 1800s).

If a law from the 1800s is, in your eyes, causing a very slippery slope then I'll have to point out that it's not a very steep slope; if anything further laws have gone in the opposite direction entirely ergo your fears seem ill-informed/misplaced!

 

[dowie]

Loaded title, she lied and killed her baby well after the established time frame for abortion.

Well, that's why she's charged and how it's being presented in the press, see the titles of the Times article "Doctors' plea not to jail abortion woman", the BBC article "Mother jailed for taking abortion pills after legal limit" a late abortion is still an abortion.

 

[dowie]

Didn't we do this to death () in your last thread?

While this thread is asking for general opinions as well as brining up the case the case is relevant here - as you can see from the poll plenty of pro-choice ppl have limits... but do they agree with this punishment?
Likewise you could be pro-life but also anti jailing this woman.

 

[dowie]

Yes, once they give birth the baby should have all the legal protection any other person would have, and I'd support a harsh prison sentence if there's no extenuating circumstances like mental health.

Why though? I don't quite understand the basis for this POV - what fundamental difference do you feel there is if you kill a 34-week-old baby in the womb vs killing it outside?

If anything giving birth and then drowning may well be kinder than some of the ways of killing it while still in the womb, there is some controversy re: when a foetus can feel pain earlier on at like 15 weeks or 20 weeks or whatever but it's basically a baby at 34 weeks.

 

[dowie]

Rather that than 250,000 unwanted kids either being put into the adoption system or having parents who don't want them in the first place.

I think @robgmun was expressing a preference for 90% of those to have not gotten themselves pregnant in the first place rather than those pregnancies being carried to term and put up for adoption etc.

As in it's surely better to have had say 25,000 abortions instead because more people were better able to access and use contraception properly. Abortions should be legal but rare etc.

I'm not sure if those figures include things like the morning after pill though.

Looking past the absolutely horrific idea of a baby being killed the day before it is due to be born, unless they stick a hand blender up there, the woman has still got to get the baby out somehow, how do you think this is going to happen?

I do wonder if he's perhaps not thought it through as I asked @explicit4u the same thing and he doesn't seem to have an answer.

Also, today I become aware of Pro-Choice extremism. I was fully aware of extreme Pro-Life views, but never seen a view of “it’s only a baby if given birth to” stance. I feel yucky.

I don't really get that stance either.

I also think perhaps 24 weeks is pushing it a bit even. We do have exceptions re: medical stuff, there was a case not too long ago trying to stop the exemption from the limit for disabilities etc.. like a baby with downs can be terminated after 24 weeks.

There are some horrific and rare medical issues where I do think that can be appropriate, can't remember the condition but there was one where the baby is born in immense pain, skin all burned etc.. and pretty much guaranteed to not survive long at all. I do wonder if infanticide is perhaps justified in such a case, if we're prepared to abort in a case like that when it's in the womb then why not a few days later when it's outside, I guess doctors can/do practice a form of that anyway when they remove oxygen/turn off life support etc..

 

[dowie]

A deterrent would result in more women taking dangerous options rather than ‘illegal’ deception.

Doubtful, all options here are illegal so there's no incentive to take more dangerous ones.