Woman sentenced to prison for abortion.

Caporegime
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This sounds, at face value, like something from one of those bum **** states in the US but it just happened in the UK, it's this case:


Sounds horrific right? Woman seeks out abortion pills during lockdown then gets charged... tweet is from the charity that supplied them, there has been a bit of outcry about this on social media today.

But, some details seem to be missing - she was originally charged with child destruction* then seems to have taken a guilty plea re: the abortion offense, end result is that she's received a 28 month sentence instead of a 36 month one if she'd gone to trial.

Perhaps more importantly it seems this was a 32 - 34 week pregnancy, people get emotive over abortion and I'm generally pro-choice but let's be realistic that's basically killing a baby IMO. The earliest premature baby to survive with current medical technology was at 21 weeks, at the time period we're talking about in this case you're looking at a greater than 95% chance of survival.

Anyway GD, what do you think about this case and/or abortion in general? Does being pro-choice for you mean that you're happy with no limits at all or do you think there should be a line drawn somewhere? I kinda get the impression that most people do in fact want some limit in place but a few who are pro-choice are hardcore until right before delivery.


*It's not clear from the reporting but does this charge indicate that the pills simply induced an early delivery and then the baby was killed/abandoned or did it die and was essentially a miscarriage... it seems kinda moot to me either way but I think for some people they have some hangup where if you kill the foetus/baby when it's still inside the mother it's OK but if an identical foetus/baby passes through the womb then that's a magical gateway and killing it on the outside is them murdering a baby.
 
Soldato
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before posting i should let it be known that i probably lean more toward pro-life but understand and fully accept that there are circumstances where a mother should be legally allowed to terminate the life of her unborn child.

this woman, imo, should feel the full force of the law and so should the charity that supplied her the drugs. terminating a 'foetus' at 32-34 weeks is shocking. that's a baby at that stage, no debate imo, survival chances outside the womb at that age are extremely high as mentioned in the op.

the BPAS saying 'patients seeking terminations should never be threatened with prison' need to catch themselves on - that's as mental as the full blown prolifers who'd allow a pregnant women to die rather that terminate.
 
Soldato
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I'm sure like many here, I've grown up and witnessed some horrific living conditions others have to go through.

I've also seen how the adoption system can fail children, and the consequences of it doing so.


Hence, I've always been, and always will be, in the pro choice side. On the face of it, this is no different.


No one should be made to have a child - for whatever reason. Like with anything, some will abuse that power, but to begin restricting it is a very slippery slope.
 
Man of Honour
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I'm on the up to delivery side, I'd always favour the rights of the woman vs an unborn baby. Not sure what I think of the case, but that potential prison sentence is kinda mad. I think I'd lean more towards punishing the supplier of the abortion rather than the person taking the pills, but then how do you go about enforcing the cutoff if you can't see the patient...

Not sure what benefit putting this woman in prison brings to anyone.
 
Soldato
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I'm super pro-choice in most instances and to quote 2Pac "And since a man can't create one. He has no right to tell a woman when and where to create one"

But in this instance she's left it far too late. I already think out window of 21 (?) weeks is cutting it quite late. I could be wrong but I'm sure you could give birth at the point she did, and with a lot of medical aid, eventually have a healthy baby. Yeah, I can't stick up for her on this one.
 
Soldato
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i am pro choice up to a point........ but not when the baby could survive on its own.

personally i think we have the balance about right in this country tho i really wish people would make their minds up before cutting it fine (although there are reasons for it sometimes being left late)
 
Caporegime
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No one should be made to have a child - for whatever reason. Like with anything, some will abuse that power, but to begin restricting it is a very slippery slope.

What do you mean "to begin restricting it is a very slippery slope."? This isn't a new thing that's been introduced, what exactly is the slippery slope here when it's been illegal for centuries?
 
Soldato
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I'd be interested to know what the whole debate would be like if it was men who had to carry and birth offspring.

Can't comment on the OP as it's too vague on detail.

E: FWIW as a principle 100% pro choice, but like I say can't comment on this case without more detail.
 
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Caporegime
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I'm on the up to delivery side, I'd always favour the rights of the woman vs an unborn baby. Not sure what I think of the case, but that potential prison sentence is kinda mad. I think I'd lean more towards punishing the supplier of the abortion rather than the person taking the pills, but then how do you go about enforcing the cutoff if you can't see the patient...

Not sure what benefit putting this woman in prison brings to anyone.

Do you draw any distinction here between a 34-week-old foetus/baby being killed while still in the womb vs say a similar 34-week-old foetus/baby being born and then being killed (mother drowns or abandons it perhaps even though it's totally viable as a slightly early baby?

Ditto to a full-term baby? If a new mother of a fully cooked for 40 weeks baby decides to kill it right after birth is that something that deserves prison?
 
Caporegime
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In reference to the desire to impose further restrictions :)

But this isn't the result of a new law and where is the desire to impose further restrictions in relation to either this case or the law used (which dates back to the 1800s).

If a law from the 1800s is, in your eyes, causing a very slippery slope then I'll have to point out that it's not a very steep slope; if anything further laws have gone in the opposite direction entirely ergo your fears seem ill-informed/misplaced!
 
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Caporegime
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Loaded title, she lied and killed her baby well after the established time frame for abortion.
Agreed.

More detail on BBC news about circumstances.


Doesn't excuse her, as you said she broke the law and is going to jail because of it. This seems like a very specific one-off case related to lockdown circumstances.
 
Caporegime
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Loaded title, she lied and killed her baby well after the established time frame for abortion.

Well, that's why she's charged and how it's being presented in the press, see the titles of the Times article "Doctors' plea not to jail abortion woman", the BBC article "Mother jailed for taking abortion pills after legal limit" a late abortion is still an abortion.
 
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