Would the EU survive brexit

John40 said:
You trust politicians ? now that is funny and probably pretty unique.
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Trust in what sense?

Do I have to 'trust' in Cameron and Osborne to have been confident that they'd implement austerity measures? Nope there was ample evidence that that is what they intended to do and unsurprisingly they did do it.

I'm voicing an opinion based on quite clear statements made by multiple independent parties. You're voicing an alternate one yet when questioned why you can't give anything to back it up.
 
dowie said:
Trust in what sense?

Do I have to 'trust' in Cameron and Osborne to have been confident that they'd implement austerity measures? Nope there was ample evidence that that is what they intended to do and unsurprisingly they did do it.

I'm voicing an opinion based on quite clear statements made by multiple independent parties. You're voicing an alternate one yet when questioned why you can't give anything to back it up.
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I don't care how many parties you claim are all saying they know what's going to happen you know nothing more than me, it's an opinion like mine nothing else.

I simply don't have this belief that you have in politicians to tell the truth and do what they say.
 
It isn't an opinion like yours - your opinion is baseless mine isn't.

I'm not saying you're wrong simply because you disagree with me, maybe there will be a second one none of this is set in stone. But I am saying that your opinion is worthless if when drilling down there is actually no foundation to it. If you'd got something to back up the position then that would be something much more reasonable to have a strong belief around.
 
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

It is very broken however the 'fixes' don't actually amount to anything so it is even more broken because the people in charge are simply burying their heads in the sand, pocketing the money, and making their bed.

It's not rocket science....
 
Top tip.
Never ever trust the government, a politician or police officer, your a fool if you do.

Quote Dowie
"Do I have to 'trust' in Cameron and Osborne to have been confident that they'd implement austerity measures? Nope there was ample evidence that that is what they intended to do and unsurprisingly they did do it.

Oh too bloody right they have and shafted everyone in the process, NHS, Schools, housing and local councils to say the least. Don't forget we talking about the Eaton boys here, not some hard working normal person.
 
LoL. the position of you Brexiteers is so illogical, here you are adamant you can't trust Government/Politicians, they won't listen to what the people vote and will just do what they want...

And you want us to leave the EU and give them back total control over us with no oversight :D
 
Freakbro said:
LoL. the position of you Brexiteers is so illogical, here you are adamant you can't trust Government/Politicians, they won't listen to what the people vote and will just do what they want...

And you want us to leave the EU and give them back total control over us with no oversight :D
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I think the logic is that it's better to be ruled by a government that you can at least change by democratic processes. It's not that illogical a position to take - it's the "least worst" option, unless you're suggesting that all Brexiters advocate anarchy as a pure rejection of government.
 
Dave said:
I think the logic is that it's better to be ruled by a government that you can at least change by democratic processes. It's not that illogical a position to take - it's the "least worst" option, unless you're suggesting that all Brexiters advocate anarchy as a pure rejection of government.
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This is exactly my opinion of sorts. It DOESN'T matter who "runs" your country. Unelected Foreigners or Eton old boys with no interest in normal people, which most of you/us sadly are, lives.

All governments are winging it, we just ride the wave and try not to fall off the boat every day.

I think we need a WW3 to shake up politics again.
 
Dave said:
I think the logic is that it's better to be ruled by a government that you can at least change by democratic processes.
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But don't forget the Govt 'rig the votes' of elections (according to the brexiteers) so if they don't want to be changed they wont allow it! /tinfoilhat

Whereas back in the real non-paranoid world the rest of us could argue we don't have that much democracy with a FPTP system and only 2 viable parties.

Putting your X in a box once every 5 years to choose between Tory or Labour isn't much of a choice at all

It's not that illogical a position to take - it's the "least worst" option, unless you're suggesting that all Brexiters advocate anarchy as a pure rejection of government.
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Of course not, I'm advocating the system we have now, within Europe. At least this way rules are made by majority voting of a coalition of countries and National Governments are curtailed. I trust that system more than I do a Labour/Tory solely run Govt.

Anyway, we do have democracy within Europe, we vote for our MEPs, just because we are stupid about it and vote in UKIPers who do nothing about standing up for our own national interests is our own fault
 
Efour said:
This is exactly my opinion of sorts. It DOESN'T matter who "runs" your country. Unelected Foreigners or Eton old boys with no interest in normal people, which most of you/us sadly are, lives.

All governments are winging it, we just ride the wave and try not to fall off the boat every day.

I think we need a WW3 to shake up politics again.
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Excellent vote Brexit, Cameron seems to think WW3 will be a dead cert.
 
Dave said:
I think the logic is that it's better to be ruled by a government that you can at least change by democratic processes. It's not that illogical a position to take - it's the "least worst" option, unless you're suggesting that all Brexiters advocate anarchy as a pure rejection of government.
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But with stoneage system in UK it's pretty hard to make that change. Just look at last elections to see how many people voted for SNP and how many for UKIP. Then have a look which one has vastly more MPs.
 
Freakbro said:
But don't forget the Govt 'rig the votes' of elections (according to the brexiteers) so if they don't want to be changed they wont allow it! /tinfoilhat

Whereas back in the real non-paranoid world the rest of us could argue we don't have that much democracy with a FPTP system and only 2 viable parties.

Putting your X in a box once every 5 years to choose between Tory or Labour isn't much of a choice at all



Of course not, I'm advocating the system we have now, within Europe. At least this way rules are made by majority voting of a coalition of countries and National Governments are curtailed. I trust that system more than I do a Labour/Tory solely run Govt.

Anyway, we do have democracy within Europe, we vote for our MEPs, just because we are stupid about it and vote in UKIPers who do nothing about standing up for our own national interests is our own fault
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The main issue being the "I'm happy to vote UKIP in Euro's but not in a general election because errr derp" crowd. If you want real change at a national government level you have to scare the two main parties. I'm not fool enough to think UKIP will ever be in a place of real power under the FPTP voting system but we need to get the message to the 2 main parties that we disagree with some of their policies.
 
Freakbro said:
LoL. the position of you Brexiteers is so illogical, here you are adamant you can't trust Government/Politicians, they won't listen to what the people vote and will just do what they want...

And you want us to leave the EU and give them back total control over us with no oversight :D
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We have more influence over a local government than one that sits in another country and has little interest in us. That influence may be small. But it is greater than we would get in the EU.
 
Mr Jack said:
The Greek 'bail out' was never about helping Greece, it was about protecting European banks by switching debt from the fragile banks to the broader shoulders of the European nations themselves and ensuring that the barriers were in place to prevent the contagion rolling through Spain and Italy.

Frankly, the EU's treatment of Greece is the single best argument for Brexit; I'm surprised they don't make more of it.
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Agreed, it's absurd that some people still think differently.
 
Malevolence said:
Where the hell do you and the rest of your deluded ilk pull this **** from? Don't you ever read it back to yourself and see just how stupid what you're saying actually is?
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We pull it from observing that pretty much every other country has joined up as part of some trade bloc or other and assuming that we don't possess some magic insight that everyone but us lacks. We pull it from asking ourselves very simple questions such as "why would all the other European countries treat us the same as before when we turn our backs on them and leave the club?" We pull it from simple logic such as why would we be able to negotiate on more equal footing as a small nation by itself than as part of a powerful group of many?

I've said it before, but you don't see the Germans running away thinking they can't compete. The EU is set up to profit its rich, industrial nations. It gives such countries a ready market for its exports. Our problem is that unlike Germany, we have systematically destroyed our own manufacturing base and have only two real sectors we can compete in. Finance and Higher Education. Neither will gain from an exit from the EU, both would be hurt.
 
Nix said:
If the EU collapses, it won't matter if we're in it or not. No distance will shelter us from the economic fallout.

If the UK leaves, it will certainly be undermining the EU heavily. We're better off staying in and trying to effect change that way.

Besides, with China's GDP finally stalling, I can see a rough ride in the immediate future as it is. We don't need the EU faltering on top of that.

Varoufakis is bang on the money.

https://youtu.be/mIjfyGIO4xA?t=2m10s
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Very good interview. Very good watching. And Varoufakis comes across very well.

Though I can't help imagining that Varoufakis ate Own Jones after the cameras were off.
 
dowie said:
rather unlikely, the UK could well take a hit short term but long term we're likely to catch up with Germany whether in or out of the EU

which means whichever decision we make people are going to turn around in future and claim we made the right one by staying in Europe/going it alone
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If it is the case that the UK catches up with Germany, then we'd be undoubtedly be better off in as it provides an excellent export market just as it does for Germany.
 
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