XFI vs Xonar : WTF?

hughythomas said:
There seems to be a common misconception that by NOT running gaming cards your experience will be hampered by lack of effects, narrower stereo field, lack of positional depth and reduced frequency response. This just isn't true! I will concede and say the effects (like EAX for example) are inherently not there with the pro cards but they more than make up for it with the actual sound quality (and I personally think the effects sound cheap anyway but that is purely subjective).
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Really? Positional effects with 2.0 speakers? You try and pinpoint someone coming from behind you, when the sound is coming from the front. If you have speakers that can do that, then they must be pretty awesome.

If someone wants a sound card that will provide positional effects with headphones, with a pro audio card, not really going to happen is it.

If someone has a set of analogue 5.1 speakers, and wants a sound card for gaming. To my knowledge, pro audio cards to not support 5.1 analogue. Changing those 5.1 speakers for 2.0/2.1 PC speaker is a rather pointless pairing with a pro audio card, so that means buying an amp + speakers + pro audio card. Sounds great, but where is the surround sound?

I am all for pro audio cards, but they have their place as do gaming cards. However, I do acknowledge a pro audio card will sound better. Now motherboards can be bought that come with Dolby audio tech, positional sound can be had with headphones. Once that becomes more main stream, rather than just on the more expensive boards, then a gaming card will have less value. However, aslong as some form of EAX exists, and Creative keep the latest versions to their chips, then people will always want to buy a gaming sound card I suppose.

I do not care for EAX either tbh, I could happily live without it.

Ideal solution for me, would be a pro audio card connected to a decent stereo, and a gaming card with Dolby Headphone or CMSS 3D for late night gaming fun.

Take FPS games out of the equation, and there is no point in having a gaming card at all.
 
Marsman said:
Really? Positional effects with 2.0 speakers? You try and pinpoint someone coming from behind you, when the sound is coming from the front. If you have speakers that can do that, then they must be pretty awesome.

If someone wants a sound card that will provide positional effects with headphones, with a pro audio card, not really going to happen is it.

If someone has a set of analogue 5.1 speakers, and wants a sound card for gaming. To my knowledge, pro audio cards to not support 5.1 analogue. Changing those 5.1 speakers for 2.0/2.1 PC speaker is a rather pointless pairing with a pro audio card, so that means buying an amp + speakers + pro audio card. Sounds great, but where is the surround sound?

I am all for pro audio cards, but they have their place as do gaming cards. However, I do acknowledge a pro audio card will sound better. Now motherboards can be bought that come with Dolby audio tech, positional sound can be had with headphones. Once that becomes more main stream, rather than just on the more expensive boards, then a gaming card will have less value. However, aslong as some form of EAX exists, and Creative keep the latest versions to their chips, then people will always want to buy a gaming sound card I suppose.

I do not care for EAX either tbh, I could happily live without it.

Ideal solution for me, would be a pro audio card connected to a decent stereo, and a gaming card with Dolby Headphone or CMSS 3D for late night gaming fun.

Take FPS games out of the equation, and there is no point in having a gaming at all.
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2.0 positional sound isn't that hard, it's all down to how your speakers are positioned and the distance apart - going by the post your desktop pics thread most people don't have their speakers positioned right so wouldn't be any wiser anyway though.

Just look at holophonics demos like the matchbox and virtual barbershop as both are prime examples of how 2.0 sound even through speakers can give the effect of positional sound. Of course they sound best through headphones but with a good 2 speaker setup can sound convincing too.

In games like L4D2 I can hear rustling and noises from all directions whether I'm using my speakers or headphones.

My STX is amazing in games I know that for sure..
 
Khaaan! said:
2.0 positional sound isn't that hard, it's all down to how your speakers are positioned and the distance apart - going by the post your desktop pics thread most people don't have their speakers positioned right so wouldn't be any wiser anyway though.

Just look at holophonics demos like the matchbox and virtual barbershop as both are prime examples of how 2.0 sound even through speakers can give the effect of positional sound. Of course they sound best through headphones but with a good 2 speaker setup can sound convincing too.

In games like L4D2 I can hear rustling and noises from all directions whether I'm using my speakers or headphones.

My STX is amazing in games I know that for sure..
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Yes it can sound convincing, but what I was saying, or rather trying to say, was that a pro audio card, has nothing that will provide the illusion of positional, or surround sound. For eg, take the M-Audio 2496. It is just plain stereo, you can of course can use SPDIF connection to an AV amp and 5.1 speakers for surround sound, although it isn't going to be as useful as either 5.1 analogue speakers or a gaming card, as SPDIF is stereo. Without Dolby Digital encoding, it is just upmixed to 5.1 from 2.0. The only way you can get 6 channel sound with a card like the M-Audio 2496 is if the game itself has Dolby Digital, then the 2496 can pass that on to the receiver.

The barber shop demo is very good example of positional sound over stereo, but unless something is going convert that positional sound over stereo, then it will be just plain stereo. The barber shop demo is pre recorded, so Dolby Headphone is not needed, but sounds in games happen in real time, that is where Dolby Headphone and CMSS 3D come in, to convert the sounds from the game into something similar to the barber shop demo. It's something which is not present on pro audio cards, so it will be just plain stereo.

For someone who doesn't give a flying monkey about positional sound in games, then a pro audio card is certainly a great option, provided they have good headphones or a good speaker setup, otherwise that superior sound quality will be lost.
 
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HRTF based positional audio can work with 2.0 speakers, just like it can work with headphones. You need to be sitting right in the sweet spot though or it can be a bit off.

If you own an X-Fi, 4.0 is the optimal speaker setup. Once you jump to 5.1 HRTF / CMSS-3D is disabled and it switches to volume panning.

That's on my wish-list for X-Fi 2 or whatever: HTRF with 5.1, 7.1 or greater.

Left4Dead is an interesting example, in that it has a software engine that actually gives half decent positional audio with both headphones and 2.0 speakers. Most games don't. If I'm not mistaken, it applies a filter for sounds behind you so is more than simple stereo panning.
 
I've not felt like I've lost any superior sound quality in games when I moved away from my XFi cards at all - in fact I experienced a boost in sound clarity instead of a loss partly due to the then ongoing issues with Creative drivers and crackling/popping and the fact that only 1 games I used to play actually used EAX (BF2142) whereas all the other games use different 3d positioning technologies or standard Dolby/Stereo output.

I don't use /Dolby Headphone/CMSS3D or GX3D on my Xonar at all yet still fully experience positioned (in stereo) using headphones - that would mean stereo positioning is working in the games I currently play no?
 
hughythomas said:
I have started running my games (Oblivion, TF2, BFBC2 + Batman) through my pro cards and I genuinely (spelling?) think even the games sound better.

There seems to be a common misconception that by NOT running gaming cards your experience will be hampered by lack of effects, narrower stereo field, lack of positional depth and reduced frequency response. This just isn't true! I will concede and say the effects (like EAX for example) are inherently not there with the pro cards but they more than make up for it with the actual sound quality (and I personally think the effects sound cheap anyway but that is purely subjective).

Seriously guys don't disregard the budget pro cards your money will go a lot further. The frequency response will of course be naturally more flat (or true!) but providing you have some sort of hardware EQ (on a hi-fi amp for example) you can always add in 2-3dB of 100hz (your punchy low end frequency) and 12kHz (your sparkly high end clarity) for added excitement.

I am not sure of the implications if you are running surround though - my M-Audio Firewire Solo has SPDIF In/Out (with AC-3 passthrough) so PRESUAMBLY you can do it with audio interfaces that support the SPDIF standard but I will be the first to admit...for a Sound Engineer my knowledge of digital home cinema surround standards is VERY limited as I mix/master solely in stereo for 2.0/2.1 setups.

I've never got on with those silly DSP game effects. Though I am a total care bear when it comes to them so I am no doubt, incredibly biased but I do have the benefit of being able to A/B soundcards on the fly in my system and the pro cards win hands down every time.
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As a couple of other people have said, theres no comparision between 2D stereo panning and a proper HRTF style implementation - on the X-Fi via CMSS-3D I can hear that sounds are infront, behind, even above or below me (although below is a bit vague) and the direction, etc.

No one really cares about EAX/DSP effects - they are artificial at best and very static... maybe when they do a better job of environment modelling and interaction there would be more interest.
 
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Marsman said:
Really? Positional effects with 2.0 speakers? You try and pinpoint someone coming from behind you, when the sound is coming from the front. If you have speakers that can do that, then they must be pretty awesome.
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Sorry I don't think I was particularly clear in my previous posts - I didn't mean to say that if you had an analogue surround system you should go tearing down to the shops to buy a pro card. Likewise, in terms of positional audio, I totally agree that if that is important to you get a gaming card.

What I am trying to say is that we should try to be a little more careful of not falling into marketing traps which these big manufacturers have been ensnaring us in for the past decade. Creative had a practical monopoly over the gaming card market up untill recently (when Asus stole a lot of their thunder thanks to the Xonar) with their boards offering audio 'enhancing' technologies. Often these are little more than marketing gimmicks designed to attract the gaming demographic whilst offering no real benefit to the end user's audio experience. Although, I will concede that some are of genuine use (arguably EAX pre Vista and CMSS-3D which supposedly gives 2.0/2.1 gamers a positional audio experience - the joke is this is simply stereo widening but whatever).

With a pro card, most of the money will go towards good preamps, accurate converters and low latency (I appreciate the latter not being an issue for gaming). The point is, overall sound quality will be far superior but I totally agree with you Marsman that positional audio for FPSs is the domain of gaming cards. Lets be clear here, I NEVER said rush out and buy a pro card, hi-fi amp and speakers if you had an analogue home cinema system!!!

Khaaan! said:
2.0 positional sound isn't that hard, it's all down to how your speakers are positioned and the distance apart - going by the post your desktop pics thread most people don't have their speakers positioned right so wouldn't be any wiser anyway though.
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I think people ALWAYS overlook how to setup speakers correctly in a room.

For a 2.0/2.1 setup for example, a equilateral triangle with your head as the top and tweeters at ear height is a good general rule of thumb. Also, are your speakers decoupled from any surface which might be propagating the sound (like a desk for example)? Speaker stands are your friends...

Lastly, I'd just like to say that despite my ramblings on pro cards running stereo systems with hi-fi seperates I do appreciate that surround is the future! I went for a beer with a good producer friend of mine who is doing research into 9.1 systems (ie. 7.1 + one above & one below). This is obviously the next step for true positional audio and something a pro card would not be suited for. Having said that, I see no reason why you couldn't buy a pro card with SPDIF passthrough and buy a AV Receiver? But, again I have had no personal experience of this so can't say (although I do plan to do it when the money permits!).

Hope this clears some stuff up - I am not wholly against gaming cards I just think they are pricey for what they offer but do think they obviously have an intended enthusiast demographic who'll happily pay through the teeth for the privilege of having all the bells and whistles.
 
Khaaan! said:
I don't use /Dolby Headphone/CMSS3D or GX3D on my Xonar at all yet still fully experience positioned (in stereo) using headphones - that would mean stereo positioning is working in the games I currently play no?
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Which games? Practically anything using source engine is decent for positional sound with headphones regardless of soundcard.

Most other games are not.
 
Just got an XtremeMusic up and running.....sounded great and no pops/crackles or anything. So I got the ol' soldering iron out and swapped the opamp for an AD8599 and the power filter cap for a 680uF panasonic FM and the card sounds stunning now.

I paid 20 used for the card, got the opamp free from Analogue Devices through my Uni, and took the Panny FM off an old failed DAC project. Very pleased. :)
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