Soldato
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Um why? Are we no longer allowed to discuss our disapproval of it for some reason?
There's nout wrong with what Shami posted. He has a valid point.
XIM3 round the corner (mouse and keyboard support)
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Um why? Are we no longer allowed to discuss our disapproval of it for some reason?
There's nout wrong with what Shami posted. He has a valid point.
Bare in mind that accuracy is based on shots hitting.
While a Keyboard and Mouse user has a better accuracy, doesn't mean that they don't still pump bullets into walls to try and hit someone, or miss their target.
That's a pinch of salt on that one.
Caporegime
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The fun is in the competition. That's the whole point. I use XIM to be competitive. Without it I'm nothing more than a noob that gets waxed by vastly superior controller players. I hit the controller plateau and would have given up on a game that I really love if it weren't for XIM. If you want to label me a cheat, I really don't care. Especially if it means that I stand a chance at beating you with a controller.
In general though, I think this argument is going nowhere.
Everybody who has come across from that forum are either XIM user or potential XIM users. They can't see it as cheating, because the lot of them have all convinced themselves it's not cheating.
Everybody who has come across from that forum are either XIM user or potential XIM users. They can't see it as cheating, because the lot of them have all convinced themselves it's not cheating.
Caporegime
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But you stated that you used XIM to get to the highest level, how is that being competitive?
Surely you were competitive at level 20 with the controller? You must have been doing well enough to get to level 20, which was clearly appropriate for your skill level. Had you continued to play with a controller you probably would haver got better and increased your level.
Being competitive with other level 20s is only fun for so long. The ranking system appropriately determined that's where I belonged (hence the plateau). Strategically, however, I was a much higher level. My *controller* skills were unable to match that unfortunately. That's the reason I picked up a XIM. I was able to earn my level 50 and play against really good strategical players (who happen to be extremely talented with a controller).
From a technical proficiency standpoint the game is only fun for so long. It's not until you get into the upper echelon of players where game strategy and knowledge become your real weapon, and you really start to appreciate all it and your competition has to offer.
There's a constant debate over a level playing field. I leveled the controller skill playing field with XIM in order to play with the more savvy strategical players. I guess the fairness in that is subjective.
Again, if you want to label me a cheat for being able to compete at a level I feel I'm capable of (independent of the tool used), so be it. I'm not using glitches or hacks to get there. I'm using a device more suited to my skills.
And for the record I grew up on consoles. I've never touched a PC FPS. I was just able to adapt better to XIM than a controller.
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meh if it was cheap I would buy it. Dont mind anyone using it and has been found out already great controller players with decent sound can still pwn them.
If it wasn't such a crazu price im sure they would be very popular.
If it wasn't such a crazu price im sure they would be very popular.
ya, my stats on console. you really have to take with a huge grain of salt.
accuracy % is never accurate for any player. it's a largely adjusted figure which leads to inflating & deflating. in W@W for instance at one point i was shooting a 16% accuracy rate, yet dividing the shots out i was actually shooting 22-24%.
in my case, across all COD games im 15%. simply put i spray. end of every S&D round, etc. the practical accuracy is far higher than the leaderboard stat.
i never roll big killstreaks. i roll small ones. i can roll huge kill games as much as anyone else, i just leave it to others to do. that's why BO & MW2 just epic fail vs most competition. it's simply not hard to get to 9-11 kills, which net another dozen kills, etc.
in regards to how bleh MW2 is. i was done with nukes within two weeks of the game coming out (I had it 11 days early). but even afterwards i have always stood by, "if i WANT a nuke, ill GET a nuke". generally, i get them quickly within starting to try for one. within the first 3 maps, regardless of the map.
it's more a question of lag that anything.
i play ffa, but i don't whore it out. (i know some that do...). what non console player's don't understand is how social console, especially 360 is. there's always tons of friends to play with & the craving to jump in each other's FFA's doesn't last long vs playing team games.
ya. ive no doubt if i WANTED to whore out FFA, i could easily have a 10:1 win ratio and a 5:1 kdr. hell that's nothing more than quit any game where the #1 player has >9 kills & go 30-6 as an average.
a *competitive* game for me in a fair ffa (all start together) is 30-15. that's generally worst case. 30-10 you can do in most lobbies while laid back watching tv.
FWIW i have a name in MW2 that has a legit 399 win streak. i wanted to beat a buddy to 200 win streak (He's a stats whore with ultra high stats that really get's down to FFA.). I didn't play FFA. I played some ffa, lots of team tack. tdm, dom, on wrecking people at FFA)... I literally QUIT the win streak at 399. I said enough. Tired, Im done. It's boring.
During that time I didn't drop some absurd amount of games to avoid anything. The random FFA game was dropped simply because you're not going to win an FFA with someone 20 kills away. (For FFA I generally have an 8-9 kill rule. Joining a random game I expect to win if the #1 player has a 9 kill head start, or 8 if they're balling). I kept a picture record & turned it into a video on my youtube channel. Good times, but BORING.
One person in a sea asks about XIM vs MS security features & suddenly we're "dodging" the subject? WTF is that? I mean, I proved in my third post you're an ignorant moron.
XIM 1 uses whatever xbox-> PS2 adapter you wish. (or ps3 to ps2 adapter for PS3 users).
XIM 2 piggybacks a standard controller. (All controls are soldered too)
XIM 3, the xbox asks the xim 3 what it's doing.
There is no breech of the xbox live terms of service in doing any of that, provided you are not running macros.
MS has been contacted at several different times & has never replied, nor taken any notice what so ever of XIM. From xim1+.
Ill always remember a specific GB match on a specific host. we had 3 xim'ers + 1 very, very high level controller user VS a top 10 team on the mw2 ladder. (with multiple members in the top 100 overall).
We had one xim'er with a hot round. He's a very quick shot. Run & gunned them & aced it. 5-0! Against extremely high competition!
On the other hand, I caught 2 simtex's in the face & only had good showings in rounds we lost.
(We lost that map 4-2).
XIM vs controller had little to do with anything. Simply put they lucked into one of the few maps we had rarely played as a team VS high end competition & we got rolled. On that map, they were better.
accuracy % is never accurate for any player. it's a largely adjusted figure which leads to inflating & deflating. in W@W for instance at one point i was shooting a 16% accuracy rate, yet dividing the shots out i was actually shooting 22-24%.
in my case, across all COD games im 15%. simply put i spray. end of every S&D round, etc. the practical accuracy is far higher than the leaderboard stat.
i never roll big killstreaks. i roll small ones. i can roll huge kill games as much as anyone else, i just leave it to others to do. that's why BO & MW2 just epic fail vs most competition. it's simply not hard to get to 9-11 kills, which net another dozen kills, etc.
in regards to how bleh MW2 is. i was done with nukes within two weeks of the game coming out (I had it 11 days early). but even afterwards i have always stood by, "if i WANT a nuke, ill GET a nuke". generally, i get them quickly within starting to try for one. within the first 3 maps, regardless of the map.
it's more a question of lag that anything.
i play ffa, but i don't whore it out. (i know some that do...). what non console player's don't understand is how social console, especially 360 is. there's always tons of friends to play with & the craving to jump in each other's FFA's doesn't last long vs playing team games.
ya. ive no doubt if i WANTED to whore out FFA, i could easily have a 10:1 win ratio and a 5:1 kdr. hell that's nothing more than quit any game where the #1 player has >9 kills & go 30-6 as an average.
a *competitive* game for me in a fair ffa (all start together) is 30-15. that's generally worst case. 30-10 you can do in most lobbies while laid back watching tv.
FWIW i have a name in MW2 that has a legit 399 win streak. i wanted to beat a buddy to 200 win streak (He's a stats whore with ultra high stats that really get's down to FFA.). I didn't play FFA. I played some ffa, lots of team tack. tdm, dom, on wrecking people at FFA)... I literally QUIT the win streak at 399. I said enough. Tired, Im done. It's boring.
During that time I didn't drop some absurd amount of games to avoid anything. The random FFA game was dropped simply because you're not going to win an FFA with someone 20 kills away. (For FFA I generally have an 8-9 kill rule. Joining a random game I expect to win if the #1 player has a 9 kill head start, or 8 if they're balling). I kept a picture record & turned it into a video on my youtube channel. Good times, but BORING.
One person in a sea asks about XIM vs MS security features & suddenly we're "dodging" the subject? WTF is that? I mean, I proved in my third post you're an ignorant moron.
XIM 1 uses whatever xbox-> PS2 adapter you wish. (or ps3 to ps2 adapter for PS3 users).
XIM 2 piggybacks a standard controller. (All controls are soldered too)
XIM 3, the xbox asks the xim 3 what it's doing.
There is no breech of the xbox live terms of service in doing any of that, provided you are not running macros.
Everything else deals with not breaking into their network.
MS has been contacted at several different times & has never replied, nor taken any notice what so ever of XIM. From xim1+.
Ill always remember a specific GB match on a specific host. we had 3 xim'ers + 1 very, very high level controller user VS a top 10 team on the mw2 ladder. (with multiple members in the top 100 overall).
We had one xim'er with a hot round. He's a very quick shot. Run & gunned them & aced it. 5-0! Against extremely high competition!
On the other hand, I caught 2 simtex's in the face & only had good showings in rounds we lost.
(We lost that map 4-2).
XIM vs controller had little to do with anything. Simply put they lucked into one of the few maps we had rarely played as a team VS high end competition & we got rolled. On that map, they were better.
lol at the people moaning about XIM users in this thread. Fact is people are gonna buy it and probably spank you online. Your rage level will rise to epic boss proportions, you will switch your xbox off in a fit of anger, come on here and moan to kingdom come about how there is an unfair playing field.
and you can't do anything about it!
edit: ow yea im a competitive quakworld/cs player from pc. I have no doubt in my mind i am a much better player with a mouse and keyboard. Give me a Xim3 and my halo reach Bo stats are gonna go through the roof. I will have an unfair advantage over pad users. I will crush and you know what, i'm gonna do it with a smile on my face
and you can't do anything about it!
edit: ow yea im a competitive quakworld/cs player from pc. I have no doubt in my mind i am a much better player with a mouse and keyboard. Give me a Xim3 and my halo reach Bo stats are gonna go through the roof. I will have an unfair advantage over pad users. I will crush and you know what, i'm gonna do it with a smile on my face
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No need to attack his replies, toys. I understand that some will remain opposed to the idea of an opening up of choices concerning controls, but any decision here is of little consequence. They maintain their ability to disagree with not using a controller while the ability to do so remains for any so inclined. No offense meant by my posting this here and not on the XIM boards, but try not to get banned. I do remember GameFAQs. And while my reading of OcUK threads has given me the impression that these forums are much more open to user expression, I would not advise antagonizing other posters.
Anyway, if you feel like countering my request, I'd rather it kept on the XIM forums. I don't mind people playing witness, but this plea of my own already feels like clutter, and I would rather remain on topic.
Yes, there is a topic that popped up over on the XIM forums about this thread. I was somewhat torn between mentioning it in my last post because of the impression it would bring about any possible supporters to my side of the argument, but I see now it would have been better had I done so--that thread not being able to assuredly end until this one did and all.
EDIT: I do realize other XIM users insist that they are given an advantage with the XIM. I both agree and disagree with them on this. I agree that they have gained ability over their previous selves based on a difference of familiarity from their prior controller. However, I don't agree that the equation has changed any more than it would have if they simply became more adept at using the standard 360 gamepad. All the XIM did was let them use an input that they were more physically comfortable with. That they didn't gain any experience with a controller no longer in use is merely a detail that doesn't affect their maximum level of capability within a game.
Sorry about tagging this on to your quote, but the XIM thread in question does play host to such statements and thus this portion seemed most relevant.
I hope you don't mind that in the previously mentioned thread I did suggest that the friendlier XIMers consider your offer to myself. My reasons being that I can not yet play, and that I let my interest in the outcome of such a match influence my patience over the matter. I asked for a friendly approach because some are far too defensive than they should be over the issue of cheating, considering there isn't much risk regardless of however the ruling may eventually fall on the matter. You have been quite reasonable on the issue, though that isn't to say I'd prefer that even the less agreeable posters not receive similar consideration.
[SKR]Phoenix;17941251 said:Surely you are just going to play badly to try and make out that it doesn't offer an advantage in this experiment. You'll then likely turn round and say it obviously doesn't offer an advantage and really is just a prefered control method. Which we all know is BS.
I considered the possibility of such suspicions, but I could not convince myself of it being a reasonable doubt. I suppose I made a partial mistake here as well. A small part of my reasoning when suggesting other people with XIMs play with 5punk3monk3y was because I would not expect multiple persons, either through conspiracy or chance, to behave as you suspect. Anyway, I have no intention of throwing a game to favor the resulting image of the XIM. I believe results would speak for themselves if you placed me in to a game of MW2 with nothing but a good config against someone with more experience.
The XIM2 (like the XIM) used player-made configurations that handled how the XIM translated mouse movement in to joystick input. Using these custom configs, one could create a setting that made the game considerably more playable than simply using a default setting, but between user tastes and differing levels of acceleration present in the game, these configs did not always provide an all-around, good for every person in any situation level of control.
The Smart configs that are meant to be employed with the XIM3 use translation algorithms designed by analyzing each game's individual look mechanic. So instead of having a single static setting that tries to counter acceleration or differences between X axis and Y axis sensitivities, the variable will change to the best possible setting for the input necessary. All in all, they are meant to make the mouse more manageable when dealing with lower than optimal sensitivities or high look acceleration. Having used the Halo 3 Smart profile with current XIM2 software, I can say it did indeed do a better job with translation than any of the configs I have personally created. So the new Smart profiles seem grounds for the claims made stating that the XIM3 performs better than the XIM2. Some players will still favor more their own custom configs, but Smart configs should maintain an acceptable balance for almost everyone.
I presume you're referring to me? I didn't say I'd leave the thread because of new people posting new information at all.
If these new users want to rage on and throw insults, fine by me, the threads gone way past derailment IMO, that's why I have no more interest in it.
Fairness is an interesting concept. Forgetting that the XIMs can be used for more inputs than simply a mouse, if you want to know whether or not the device is fair to use, then with who's standards do you wish to base the answer?
According to yourself, the use of a mouse through the XIM is an unfair advantage. I won't suggest I know your exact reasons, but my impression is that they are at least partially based on the fact that the XIM offers a more precise level of control to the user by taking the input of a joystick and mapping it to the greater range of motion available to a mouse.
According to me, the injection of such a freedom in to matchmaking does little more than better help people interface with a controller, creating a playing field that isn't pockmarked with the depressions caused by people who can't use a controller as well as those with greater dexterity. All that ends up happening is everyone can play the game almost as well as another (certain physical abilities notwithstanding) and the outcome of games is less affected by how well a person can handle a controller and more dependent on how intelligently they play the game.
According to LIVE it is unaddressed and therefore not deemed unacceptable. While Nexus is correct about Microsoft's ability to change their EULA in order to bar the XIMs from the region of fairness currently in effect, until they do the position of the XIM remains unmentioned.
Concerning the legality of the issue, modification services to input peripherals (and electronics in general) are not and will likely never be illegal. That's why you will never see an intelligent seller of Xbox 360 gamepads modified to use things that actually are barred by LIVE's user agreements (macros) swept under a wave of lawsuits. Hell, that's why every prosecution of someone who modded cable modems, but didn't sell them under the pretext of using them to commit a theft of service, will have their cases thrown out of court. Were OBsIV breaking 360 controllers apart and then selling them as his own creation, there could be copyright and patent issues, but he isn't. He has created an entirely standalone product that might as well be a paperweight as far as Microsoft's legal team need be concerned. This isn't something that's just going to end because of the intervention of one person or company or community. It's beyond any of us at this point, and frankly I'm not sure it was ever within the realm of control. As long as one person sees the need for such an option, the possibility will always remain.
...Not that I mean to dissuade discussion on the subject. I'm probably just writing it as a reminder to myself that it doesn't matter if anyone agrees or disagrees with what I post.
Again, sorry about the tl;dr nature of this post.
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Soldato
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Well, according to the mentality of some of the users I've encountered using them, some of the people on your own forums that think it's an advantage, and people like this.
edit: ow yea im a competitive quakworld/cs player from pc. I have no doubt in my mind i am a much better player with a mouse and keyboard. Give me a Xim3 and my halo reach Bo stats are gonna go through the roof. I will have an unfair advantage over pad users. I will crush and you know what, i'm gonna do it with a smile on my face
To me the skill of a player is all encompassing, as the bloke earlier said. He hit his skill limit with a pad at around level 20, and had to boost himself artificially with an XIM. According to the game he's now more skilled by 30 levels, up to the level of players that really try hard to get where they are. Your mentality is that he's now more skilled because he's not limited by the pad, my mentality is that he's no more skilled, but he's having to artificially change the rules that everyone else agrees on.
The legality according to MS is moot imo, plenty of games have exploits that some people decide not to use, and other will use to the full extent. Just because MS have yet to do anything about it, does not mean it isn't a generally bad thing imo.
I understand the requirement of the disabled or amputees to want to play, and I can sympathise with that to an extent, my issue is with the general player that is using it to to gain an artificial advantage over how they would play with a pad.
I don't expect either side to change view, but I don't think it's a cut and clear case of no advantage regardless of the numbers and stats when I see how these devices are being used.
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Soldato
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This mentality sums it up nicely imo.
You're a level 20 skill player, but you can't progress because of a lack of skill with a controller. This level 20 encompasses your entire skill level, you may have good strategy, but you cant shoot. Everyone else on the even playing field is ranked according to the same rules that the game provides.
You think you belong at level 50 but need to artificially boost your skill using an XIM to obtain that.
It's like turning up to a biathalon on a snowmobile, because your a crack shot that cant ski, yet wants to compete in the Olympics.
Soldato
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I played Toys last night on MW2 1vs1 on Scrapyard we only played 1 game I hosted and lost by 5 kills, I felt let down by the game more so then him using a M+K as I'm sure he will agree on, often spawning into his sights, Toys is a very skilled player even taking away the M+K. I'm sure that if I played against him more I would learn his tactics and have the drop on him a couple of times. As I was just using the run back to him and try and out shoot him tactic rather than move around and flank.
It was fairly obvious to me that he uses sound and game mechanics to win much more than his M+K set up. The game as I said felt certainly balanced enough when going up against him firing across the map sometimes I got him sometimes he got me, felt perfectly fine to me. As I said it was just for fun and I was more interested in watching the kill cams to see if it looked any different to a pad user, I can safely say it didn't, maybe at range he could micro adjust a little better then I could but tbh if I lowered my sensitivity slightly I could do the same.
It was fairly obvious to me that he uses sound and game mechanics to win much more than his M+K set up. The game as I said felt certainly balanced enough when going up against him firing across the map sometimes I got him sometimes he got me, felt perfectly fine to me. As I said it was just for fun and I was more interested in watching the kill cams to see if it looked any different to a pad user, I can safely say it didn't, maybe at range he could micro adjust a little better then I could but tbh if I lowered my sensitivity slightly I could do the same.
Just because Microsoft hasn't done anything yet, doesn't mean they won't.
The XIM3 is clearly the big product launch that this company is working on and they hope to sell big numbers over it's past products which have obviously been quite niche. Let's not kid ourselves here, Microsoft has whatever legal power it needs at it's disposal, this XIM company I'd wager doesn't.
Plenty of products have been banned in the past that circumvent or do something a console isn't supposed to do. This doesn't necessarily always mean that the company has to pack up and stop making them, but it can mean it becomes illegal for a retailer to sell them. Thus it becomes a case of it effectively still killing the company with the only sales being secondhand market which had already been shipped.
We all already know that obviously one reason Microsoft may seek to take legal action is because it changes the level playing field that they have set out.
However, there is another much more key reason that they are likely to take more of an issue with, that is that it lets you use any other controller. This means less revenue directed at Microsoft for the sales of their peripherals. On a further note to this, there are a number of peripheral manufacturers who have a paid license granting them to manufacturer and sell their products for the console. An unlicensed product like the XIM means it also effectively takes revenue away from these licensees because people won't buy their Steering Wheel or Flight Stick or what have you because they can use anyone that currently exists. If Microsoft wanted keyboard and mouse support, we all know that they could implement it and sell the products themselves, the fact that they haven't and how old the Xbox 360 now is just further demonstrates that they have no interest, nor would they grant somebody a license for one.
So in summary, Microsoft effectively has a duty to these license holders to take action on it. Perhaps it's not happened yet because XIM had started small, however it's clearly growing and they plan to make the XIM3 big.
I'll eat my hat if Microsoft don't step in at some point.
The XIM3 is clearly the big product launch that this company is working on and they hope to sell big numbers over it's past products which have obviously been quite niche. Let's not kid ourselves here, Microsoft has whatever legal power it needs at it's disposal, this XIM company I'd wager doesn't.
Plenty of products have been banned in the past that circumvent or do something a console isn't supposed to do. This doesn't necessarily always mean that the company has to pack up and stop making them, but it can mean it becomes illegal for a retailer to sell them. Thus it becomes a case of it effectively still killing the company with the only sales being secondhand market which had already been shipped.
We all already know that obviously one reason Microsoft may seek to take legal action is because it changes the level playing field that they have set out.
However, there is another much more key reason that they are likely to take more of an issue with, that is that it lets you use any other controller. This means less revenue directed at Microsoft for the sales of their peripherals. On a further note to this, there are a number of peripheral manufacturers who have a paid license granting them to manufacturer and sell their products for the console. An unlicensed product like the XIM means it also effectively takes revenue away from these licensees because people won't buy their Steering Wheel or Flight Stick or what have you because they can use anyone that currently exists. If Microsoft wanted keyboard and mouse support, we all know that they could implement it and sell the products themselves, the fact that they haven't and how old the Xbox 360 now is just further demonstrates that they have no interest, nor would they grant somebody a license for one.
So in summary, Microsoft effectively has a duty to these license holders to take action on it. Perhaps it's not happened yet because XIM had started small, however it's clearly growing and they plan to make the XIM3 big.
I'll eat my hat if Microsoft don't step in at some point.
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To be fair, we can't conclude a great deal from that 1 vs 1- individual skill varies hugely with both control methods. Add lag and there are even more variables.
If XIM allows someone to use a mouse with the precision and accuracy of a PC shooter, a similarly skilled pad user will struggle to compete, auto aim or not. Much comes down to the game in question - CoD is a spray and pray, who's sees who first wins, nub-em-up
, and the general game mechanics (iron sights, slow movement etc) do much to level the playing field regardless of controller. Take something like Quake 3, however, the the gap would widen tremendously. There is no way a pad user could twitch aim with pinpoint accuracy or move with the rquired precision and speed. Unlike most ardent PC fans I don't think this makes pads a worse device for shooters, but it's certainly harder to use, slower, less precise, and can't compete with a mouse on a level playing field. Auto aim alone has got me killed on numerous occasions.
If XIM allows someone to use a mouse with the precision and accuracy of a PC shooter, a similarly skilled pad user will struggle to compete, auto aim or not. Much comes down to the game in question - CoD is a spray and pray, who's sees who first wins, nub-em-up
, and the general game mechanics (iron sights, slow movement etc) do much to level the playing field regardless of controller. Take something like Quake 3, however, the the gap would widen tremendously. There is no way a pad user could twitch aim with pinpoint accuracy or move with the rquired precision and speed. Unlike most ardent PC fans I don't think this makes pads a worse device for shooters, but it's certainly harder to use, slower, less precise, and can't compete with a mouse on a level playing field. Auto aim alone has got me killed on numerous occasions.
Soldato
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To be fair, we can't conclude a great deal from that 1 vs 1- individual skill varies hugely with both control methods. Add lag and there are even more variables.
If XIM allows someone to use a mouse with the precision and accuracy of a PC shooter, a similarly skilled pad user will struggle to compete, auto aim or not. Much comes down to the game in question - CoD is a spray and pray, who's sees who first wins, nub-em-up
And the most played games on XBL are........... It certainly is not Quake3 so your argument does not stand. The Xim is going to be used mainly in COD games along with Halo. I am not a Halo player so that's why I played the Nub them up game instead.
The argument was simply that it'll be easier with a mouse. The advantage will be less obvious in CoD and Halo than in games that require speedier, more precise twitch aiming, but there nonetheless. This is assuming performance is similar PC mouse control.
I wouldn't use a XIM simply because I wouldn't get any satisfaction out of winning.
I wouldn't use a XIM simply because I wouldn't get any satisfaction out of winning.
Soldato
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What?
How exactly does his point not stand? His point is that the advantage is likely to be more noticeable in other types of FPS. Why do we have to limit this discussion to COD and halo? Or are we only allowed to discuss the most popular games?