Judging by the majority of BC2 and Halo stats of people on their forums I beg to differ. Average at best. Or maybe that's just the sort of person these attract
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XIM3 round the corner (mouse and keyboard support)
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Judging by the majority of BC2 and Halo stats of people on their forums I beg to differ. Average at best. Or maybe that's just the sort of person these attract
A common misconception.
The arcade stick makes a lot less difference than you make out except at very high levels of play (plinking is an example, how many online players do this?). You can do all non-1-frame combo's pretty much as easily with a pad if you're used to it, and online play ruins 1 frame links anyway so online there is pretty much no difference if you're used to one or the other.
I've tried an XSIM 2 and it greatly improved my scrubby FPS gameplay immediately to the point that it got boring playing online on CoD2.
Judging by the majority of BC2 and Halo stats of people on their forums I beg to differ. Average at best. Or maybe that's just the sort of person these attract
I can't speak for BC2, but in Halo having more precise aiming isn't going to help you that much unless you're sniping.
Yeah COD is one of the best performing game according to users as it lacks acceleration.
If there's no way to combat the acceleration pretty much all console shooters employ it'll be awful to use.
//Oops, just read above post. So for every game that uses acceleration it's not going to be a patch on the m&k action we're used to on the PC. Sounds poo to me.
//Oops, just read above post. So for every game that uses acceleration it's not going to be a patch on the m&k action we're used to on the PC. Sounds poo to me.
Correct. You are at the mercy of whatever the devs choose for the stick handling. Meaning every game will feel different and none will feel 100% pc mouse and keyboard.
Actually, unlike XIM1, the XIM2 does handle various accelerations. It performs pc-like on several games. It also takes into account square deadzones (which causes diagonal movements to feel strange). And as good as XIM2 is already, XIM3 is leaps and bounds better.
i think you guys are confusing this product with several of the crap china products like the xfps sniper and stuff.
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Soldato
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Missed this thread...
Still can't believe people are trying to defend these things as not cheating. It's for people too lazy to practice with a pad that just want an instant advantage and are willing to pay for it.
If I play any game and I'm not good at it I practice to get better.
Don't wish the game was easier, wish you were better at it.
Still can't believe people are trying to defend these things as not cheating. It's for people too lazy to practice with a pad that just want an instant advantage and are willing to pay for it.
If I play any game and I'm not good at it I practice to get better.
Don't wish the game was easier, wish you were better at it.
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Providing it works, I may indeed get one. It's not so much the difficulty of using a pad (although I will be first to admit I suck using the pad), it's the frustration of how clumsy it is in comparison to a m+kb. I attempted to play MW2 on my 360 and swapped it for the PC version the next day, it drove me nuts. Theres been quite a few fps shooters on the consoles I have missed out on actually because of this, I find the pad clumsy, numb and ultimatley excruciating to use.
You do ofcourse get used to it, and ability increases with practise, but, for me, its the fact you are taking out in an instance where you know if it was a m+kb you would have had the b****** half an hour ago that puts me off console fps gaming.
I find the cheating argument a had sell, its an advantage, sure, but take the PC side, a guy with a £2000 gaming PC can hardly be considered to cheat vs someone on a three year old HP now can they? I understand much of consoles appeal is the standardised machine that everyone has, but honestly that ship sailed the minute microsoft started selling peripherals and indeed the elite/pros etc.
You do ofcourse get used to it, and ability increases with practise, but, for me, its the fact you are taking out in an instance where you know if it was a m+kb you would have had the b****** half an hour ago that puts me off console fps gaming.
I find the cheating argument a had sell, its an advantage, sure, but take the PC side, a guy with a £2000 gaming PC can hardly be considered to cheat vs someone on a three year old HP now can they? I understand much of consoles appeal is the standardised machine that everyone has, but honestly that ship sailed the minute microsoft started selling peripherals and indeed the elite/pros etc.
What a daft counter argument. Having lower graphics settings (an older PC) is an advantage in a lot of games (less clutter). The difference between a pad and keyboard is huge, as it makes people who are terrible at console FPS games like me mop up online.
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That may be because you had one of theses and the other player didnt
Surely people buy consoles so they dont have to sit at a desks
next it will be macro key support and haxs
xim4 i can see the future me 
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I never said anything about graphics setting, I was thinking more along the lines of someone using an eyefinity tripple display for MW2 having that huge peripheral vision advantage. And the ability to run additional programs in the background to give him an advantage.
Mr skinflint could be bobbing around the 25fps average and constantly dropping into single digits vs the other guy with a minimum of 50fps.
Is the guy with the better apparatus cheating?
No because the advantage gained is nowhere near comparable to the difference between a mouse + kb and a pad. It's more on par with someone using a stick or a wheel in their relevant genres.
A mouse + kb is vastly more responsive, fast and accurate.
A mouse + kb is vastly more responsive, fast and accurate.
This is also a very good point. The whole reason i prefer consoles over PCs is that in nearly every game (ie those that don't make use of wheels or fightsticks) the playing field is level. The moment someone uses a XIM that playing field becomes skewed.
Fightsticks and wheels are also available cheap and can be used on your lap, the XIM requires you to sit up at a desk/table which ruins another thing i love about consoles; the ability to slouch back on a sofa in front of the tele while i play.
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Aren't most of the top lap times in sims done by pad users anyway?
WARNING: Overly-long post incoming. Probably best to take this one in sections if you are short on time, or simply skipping explanations and starting at the last few sentences. It more or less sums up the situation as I see it.
I've avoided jumping in until now because everything seemed to be taking its own fair course before this jewel appeared. The argument would benefit if you read this point again:
As it is, you seem to be using a PC-supported mouse with its full 1-3+ meter/second tracking speed for comparison instead of one mapped to a joystick's axes and limited to the same speed limitations placed on said joystick. Yours would not be an accurate comparison of the two devices. A better, but arguably more complicated example would be comparing the gamepad's current miniature joystick to another joystick sized so that its direction would be manipulated by the entire palm coupled with a free-floating base that re-centered both axes following each movement. This does leave out the possible necessity of picking up the joystick to move it back to a more comfortable position for the user, as can be done with a mouse, but the manner in which it operates within the game and the physical world would be quite similar.
Of course the mouse's interactions with the PC running the XIM software (or XIM3 in this case) would still be fairly fast, but they are forcibly scaled back to whatever maximum of speed the game employs. Because of this, there is no speed or accuracy advantage that isn't directly related to physical operation, and that is something that can not be regulated. Doing so would require direct control over how well each individual interfaced with their input device, and begins to skew the argument more towards one of arm versus thumb than it does mouse versus joystick. In addition, joystick users beyond a certain proficiency level would also be able to find themselves in violation of such regulations.
Speed aside, response from a mouse working through a XIM that is working through a controller is not going to beat the speed of the controller. The difference is negligible, but it still has to be translated by the XIM before it can even reach the point of input that the controller naturally inhabits.
Accuracy is a more complicated matter, as accuracy in-game is directly related to accuracy out-of-game, bringing us back to how well the player can manipulate his or her controller. If you can't use a mouse well, you're not going to be any better off than you were with a joypad. The learning curve for a mouse on a PC might be less steep because of the direct correlation between distance the mouse has moved and the distance moved in-game, allowing for the player to develop a muscle memory of certain motions more quickly than they can in a scenario where the distance moved by the mouse has been broken in to a varying intensity of turn and time variables, as is the case with both joysticks and mice working through them. On top of this is the chance of an acceleration value based on time and intensity that further complicates the equation.
Learning to use a mouse through the XIM would be an interesting development to witness, as it will mimic learning to use the joypad's thumbstick, only with the physical interaction that is required by the mouse. However because of the available area of motion with a mouse versus the smaller zone allowed by the Xbox 360's joypad, it is easier to control the speed of movement. With this ease, I can see the mouse offering a slight advantage, but the limit is still capped at that of a joypad user who has no problems manipulating the controller at the same sensitivity setting in a game where this comparison would take place. The mouse is also unable to make unending turns like those possible with a joystick without separate button mappings dedicated to the task, and lacks the amount of functions required to completely mimic the entire joypad without supplemental input.
The concept of a level playing field is an impossibility with humans, or any animal on this planet for that matter. Indeed, I think you would be surprised at just how much your position can vary against whomever it is that you end up playing against.
As a possible example, what model screen do you use with your console? Not a large LCD widescreen you bought for films and television, I hope. Those are typically PVA/MVA panels, and are known for their good black levels and absolutely horrendous input lag, usually ranging from 35ms to 70ms, though 120ms is not unheard of. Stacked on to regular network latency (considering console matchmaking), you are likely to be a full fifth of a second behind someone with a CRT who happens to live closer to the host or a matchmaking server than yourself. That is more than enough to put you in a losing position for the majority of time you play together.
Surround sound, even virtual surround, when implemented correctly is akin to wallhacking. Some games use positional audio so well that you can track multiple opponents moving through a level by sound alone. Versus standard stereo audio, there is a very real advantage granted to the player who can hear exactly where his opponent is.
Widescreen and visuals don't seem to matter quite as much, either due to an already-low field of view of improperly implemented widescreen (cutting sides off the fullscreen image), but they still play a slight role in imbalancing this supposed "level playing field."
And then there's You, the Player. No matter what sweet fictions your parents fed You, You are not the equal of everyone else. Through either genetics or experience, You are unique, and that uniquity is an attribute shared by every other member of the species. Some of us are faster than others, smarter than others, more able to reason than others, and all of these varying abilities, inherited or learned, combine to create a being that is never equal to another.
There's no such thing as a level playing field, and while we are currently in no position to change that fact, any solution wouldn't be likely to appeal to the person.
I also don't know what flight system you have been using, but my Saitek crap is bulky enough that I dedicated an entire chair to it, mounting the pedals, throttle, and stick so that they could be placed comfortably and rolled in to a closet when necessary to avoid taking up floor and desk space. Using the throttle and flightstick alone would be tricky on a couch, but the idea sounds uncomfortable, especially if working the pedals. All the cushioning would definitely interfere with how well I could manage that without bending my knees too much when in a neutral position, and either the throttle, stick, or both would be placed too high if they as on the armrests.
EDIT: Oh, wow. It seems that I managed to misread every instance of "fightstick" in your post, and it makes much more sense now.
I personally don't consider flawed peripheral design and implementation to be a legitimate modifier to the difficulty of any game over a more advanced automatic task completion system or simply better design, but to each his own. AI seems to react badly to any number of scenarios regardless of what controller the player is using, although in this case everyone is still using the same controller. XIM players are merely controlling the joypad with a mouse, keyboard, second (third if you want to count the other thumbstick) joystick, or any other compatible device.
I am lazy, though. Stubborn, really. Enough so that asking me to learn to use a joypad well when I already did so with a different input won't lead anywhere, regardless of limits to my justification. The XIM3 is a buy it or don't buy it option, as there isn't a thing anyone can do to stop players from using controller adapters that work outside the peripheral system without a security redesign, and that would mean everyone has to buy a new controller... and probably a new console as well.
I've avoided jumping in until now because everything seemed to be taking its own fair course before this jewel appeared. The argument would benefit if you read this point again:
As it is, you seem to be using a PC-supported mouse with its full 1-3+ meter/second tracking speed for comparison instead of one mapped to a joystick's axes and limited to the same speed limitations placed on said joystick. Yours would not be an accurate comparison of the two devices. A better, but arguably more complicated example would be comparing the gamepad's current miniature joystick to another joystick sized so that its direction would be manipulated by the entire palm coupled with a free-floating base that re-centered both axes following each movement. This does leave out the possible necessity of picking up the joystick to move it back to a more comfortable position for the user, as can be done with a mouse, but the manner in which it operates within the game and the physical world would be quite similar.
Of course the mouse's interactions with the PC running the XIM software (or XIM3 in this case) would still be fairly fast, but they are forcibly scaled back to whatever maximum of speed the game employs. Because of this, there is no speed or accuracy advantage that isn't directly related to physical operation, and that is something that can not be regulated. Doing so would require direct control over how well each individual interfaced with their input device, and begins to skew the argument more towards one of arm versus thumb than it does mouse versus joystick. In addition, joystick users beyond a certain proficiency level would also be able to find themselves in violation of such regulations.
Speed aside, response from a mouse working through a XIM that is working through a controller is not going to beat the speed of the controller. The difference is negligible, but it still has to be translated by the XIM before it can even reach the point of input that the controller naturally inhabits.
Accuracy is a more complicated matter, as accuracy in-game is directly related to accuracy out-of-game, bringing us back to how well the player can manipulate his or her controller. If you can't use a mouse well, you're not going to be any better off than you were with a joypad. The learning curve for a mouse on a PC might be less steep because of the direct correlation between distance the mouse has moved and the distance moved in-game, allowing for the player to develop a muscle memory of certain motions more quickly than they can in a scenario where the distance moved by the mouse has been broken in to a varying intensity of turn and time variables, as is the case with both joysticks and mice working through them. On top of this is the chance of an acceleration value based on time and intensity that further complicates the equation.
Learning to use a mouse through the XIM would be an interesting development to witness, as it will mimic learning to use the joypad's thumbstick, only with the physical interaction that is required by the mouse. However because of the available area of motion with a mouse versus the smaller zone allowed by the Xbox 360's joypad, it is easier to control the speed of movement. With this ease, I can see the mouse offering a slight advantage, but the limit is still capped at that of a joypad user who has no problems manipulating the controller at the same sensitivity setting in a game where this comparison would take place. The mouse is also unable to make unending turns like those possible with a joystick without separate button mappings dedicated to the task, and lacks the amount of functions required to completely mimic the entire joypad without supplemental input.
The concept of a level playing field is an impossibility with humans, or any animal on this planet for that matter. Indeed, I think you would be surprised at just how much your position can vary against whomever it is that you end up playing against.
As a possible example, what model screen do you use with your console? Not a large LCD widescreen you bought for films and television, I hope. Those are typically PVA/MVA panels, and are known for their good black levels and absolutely horrendous input lag, usually ranging from 35ms to 70ms, though 120ms is not unheard of. Stacked on to regular network latency (considering console matchmaking), you are likely to be a full fifth of a second behind someone with a CRT who happens to live closer to the host or a matchmaking server than yourself. That is more than enough to put you in a losing position for the majority of time you play together.
Surround sound, even virtual surround, when implemented correctly is akin to wallhacking. Some games use positional audio so well that you can track multiple opponents moving through a level by sound alone. Versus standard stereo audio, there is a very real advantage granted to the player who can hear exactly where his opponent is.
Widescreen and visuals don't seem to matter quite as much, either due to an already-low field of view of improperly implemented widescreen (cutting sides off the fullscreen image), but they still play a slight role in imbalancing this supposed "level playing field."
And then there's You, the Player. No matter what sweet fictions your parents fed You, You are not the equal of everyone else. Through either genetics or experience, You are unique, and that uniquity is an attribute shared by every other member of the species. Some of us are faster than others, smarter than others, more able to reason than others, and all of these varying abilities, inherited or learned, combine to create a being that is never equal to another.
There's no such thing as a level playing field, and while we are currently in no position to change that fact, any solution wouldn't be likely to appeal to the person.
I also don't know what flight system you have been using, but my Saitek crap is bulky enough that I dedicated an entire chair to it, mounting the pedals, throttle, and stick so that they could be placed comfortably and rolled in to a closet when necessary to avoid taking up floor and desk space. Using the throttle and flightstick alone would be tricky on a couch, but the idea sounds uncomfortable, especially if working the pedals. All the cushioning would definitely interfere with how well I could manage that without bending my knees too much when in a neutral position, and either the throttle, stick, or both would be placed too high if they as on the armrests.
EDIT: Oh, wow. It seems that I managed to misread every instance of "fightstick" in your post, and it makes much more sense now.
I personally don't consider flawed peripheral design and implementation to be a legitimate modifier to the difficulty of any game over a more advanced automatic task completion system or simply better design, but to each his own. AI seems to react badly to any number of scenarios regardless of what controller the player is using, although in this case everyone is still using the same controller. XIM players are merely controlling the joypad with a mouse, keyboard, second (third if you want to count the other thumbstick) joystick, or any other compatible device.
I am lazy, though. Stubborn, really. Enough so that asking me to learn to use a joypad well when I already did so with a different input won't lead anywhere, regardless of limits to my justification. The XIM3 is a buy it or don't buy it option, as there isn't a thing anyone can do to stop players from using controller adapters that work outside the peripheral system without a security redesign, and that would mean everyone has to buy a new controller... and probably a new console as well.
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