Anyone using Wegovy?

Caporegime
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He is not addicted to carbs, he is addicted to winning an argument at the expense of his own health.

Could be worse though, could be vegan. (in terms of health)

What does this mean?

My point is to eat in MODERATION, a BALANCE diet.

If you are against this then you are eating at the expense of your own health. Even too much water will kill you, nevermind too much fat.

I am not even saying don't eat fat, I am not even saying low fat diet, I am not even saying eat all the carbs. I am saying I am eating the same thing, but less. I eat a ton of fibre, fruit, veg, carbs (multi-grain rice), and protein (chicken, fish about 5 times a week). By any metric, it is healthy food and balanced.
 
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Soldato
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As I said, if you can do that and deal with the hunger then I have great respect for that. However, why are you having to restrict calories in the first place? As I also said the stats on calorie restriction don't work. And studies do show that people lose more weight on low carb when calorie matched (easily explainable without breaking any laws of thermodynamics)
I haven't read all the posts of this discussion but this caught my eye.

I seem to have some vague recollection that carbs end up being stored with/absorb water in the system. Which could explain why those on low carb diets lose more weight (as they are retaining less water).
 
Associate
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Feels a waste to have a discussion of whether or not carbs or keto diet is good
When it is sugary drinks and ultraprocessed foods that are the real crap that screws up everyones metabolism
 
Soldato
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What does this mean?

My point is to eat in MODERATION, a BALANCE diet.

If you are against this then you are eating at the expense of your own health. Even too much water will kill you, nevermind too much fat.

I tried to look up your post i swear you said you tried a keto diet but i cannot find it, or was it someone else?

If you want a perfect balanced diet, meat/fish, eggs, veg, fruit.

Carbs are not, "balanced" adding them in serves no purpose, you are adding kcal with nothing else.

Feels a waste to have a discussion of whether or not carbs or keto diet is good
When it is sugary drinks and ultraprocessed foods that are the real crap that screws up everyones metabolism

I feel as that is redundant as no carb removes that anyway.
 
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Caporegime
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I tried to look up your post i swear you said you tried a keto diet but i cannot find it, or was it someone else?

If you want a perfect balanced diet, meat/fish, eggs, veg, fruit.

Carbs are not, "balanced" adding them in serves no purpose, you are adding kcal with nothing else.

My friend did, this was back in 2012. I recall we went to a restaurant and have a very clear memory of her asking the waitress to swap the bread for something else.

I think I tried it for like a week....didn't like it. I went think thinking a diet of meat and cheese is great but I like flavour, I like sauces, I like to eat a combination of vegetables with meat, like I like a burger in a bun. I like food....so I binned it after like a week. It is also expensive to eat Keto, I also can't eat too much dairy as my stomach can't handle it.

As for Carbs are not balanced, I never said eat only carbs, but carbs along with everything else.

As for "carbs serve no purpose"

Just google "Do we need Carbs" in google. First link is Harvard...https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/#:~:text=Foods%20high%20in%20carbohydrates%20are,bodily%20functions%20and%20physical%20activity.

And the 1st sentence is "Quality matters" which no one is advocating eating a ton of junk.

And I also know full well with regards to "humans don't need it, we used to be hunters, farming came later, blah blah blah". I am not advocating getting all your calories from carbs...I said the word balance so many times I lost count now. You probably have this image that I eat nothing but carbs....That's the rice portion I have with the meal.

Tofu, fish, prawns, ribs, chicken, eggs, duck, mushrooms, a ton of greens with every meal.

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daz

daz

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If self control around portions and hunger were easy, then it is clear that Wegovy wouldn't be where it is today. It serves a purpose.
Telling someone to "just" eat less and exercise is not particularly useful.

There appears to be an increasing amount of evidence that there is a massive variation in how different people's bodies process and consume food and use the energy sources we give to it. From what I understand a certain amount of that is genetic but a massive factor that seems to have come to the fore in the last 5-10 years is the gut microbiome. How that interacts with your body and your hormones and your brain is still being understood, but it's far from clear that things are simple; it anything the interactions are significantly more complicated than we first thought and there is increasing evidence linking the gut microbiome not just with physical health, but mental health, i.e. depression too.
 

daz

daz

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It seems clear as well that we don't yet understand the full impact of ultra-processed foods on our health. Certain foods that have been demonised in years gone past are understood to be valuable nutritionally, others that were championed are now known to not be helpful.

We are only just seeing the impact of longer term research on a number of artificial sweeteners, such as how they affect hunger signals within the body (i.e. tasting sweetness, and expecting glucose but not getting any...).
 
Caporegime
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I think we're all aware that it's what you put in that counts when it comes to how you feel, and not every calorie is the same. The discussion above largely stemmed from claims that someone couldn't lose weight on 1500 calories a day, but could on 3000 calories a day. Even taking fasting into account, something doesn't add up and there are definitely other factors at play that have either not been considered or are being deliberately omitted.

Saying that calories are made up nonsense to get everyone to consume carbohydrate products isn't the answer either.
 
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Caporegime
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Even for 2 it seems a lot for me, I'd probably be fine with a quarter of that, although I'd definitely have more rice, that's a really tiny portion there

I go to my parents' to eat often, they live round the corner, so it's for 3 people but usually some leftovers.

I used to have a second bowl of rice, but I stopped that now. Like I said, balanced, as there are other carbs in the dishes like potatoes, pumpkins, some noodles. By any metric, that is healthy food. Nothing deep fried, plenty of protein, varied amount of protein too, lots of greens (fibre). The only problem is I used to eat until I am full, now I just eat the correct portion size and then stop.
 
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Soldato
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I haven't read all the posts of this discussion but this caught my eye.

I seem to have some vague recollection that carbs end up being stored with/absorb water in the system. Which could explain why those on low carb diets lose more weight (as they are retaining less water).

Excess glucose causes damage to cells, including blood vessels, which causes inflammation, inflammation causes the retention of water yes, and yes being on a low carb diet does lead to a decrease in inflammation and therefore less water retention (thats also why we need to consume more electrolytes like salt to prevent cramps)
Having said that, studies on low carb diets have shown that they also lose more fat over the long term too, as most of the water loss happens in the first few weeks, there have been 6 month follow ups on several studies (24 weeks)
 
Soldato
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I think we're all aware that it's what you put in that counts when it comes to how you feel, and not every calorie is the same. The discussion above largely stemmed from claims that someone couldn't lose weight on 1500 calories a day, but could on 3000 calories a day. Even taking fasting into account, something doesn't add up and there are definitely other factors at play that have either not been considered or are being deliberately omitted.

Saying that calories are made up nonsense to get everyone to consume carbohydrate products isn't the answer either.

No, I didn't say I was losing weight eating 3000 calories every day, I said I wasn't gaining any weight. When I want to drop weight I fast.
As I already explained, protein requires 30% energy to convert to glucose, its thermogenic. Also the body produces a set amount of bile based on how much fat it thinks it requires, bile is required to process fat and excess fat is excreted (thats actually what makes your poo soft and not fibre and thats why the best outcomes are on zero fibre diets ref. Dr. Paul Mason et al)
I also do more excercise on this diet because I actually have the energy to do so (not surprising eating ~3000 calories a day rather than starving myself)

If you eat low calories for an extended period of time whilst consuming foods which spike insulin (telling your body to store fat instead of burn it) then your BMR drops chronically low, your hormones become a mess (a third of the testosterone I have now), you have no energy etc.
Refeeds are a thing in dieting for exactly this reason. My BMR based on several different calculations should be around 1800-1900, so excercise should drive this higher, however I know that on 1500 calories for more than a couple of weeks my fat loss drops to zero, so their method of BMR calculation doesn't work.

None of this is controversial, this is basic biology. It does not break any "law of thermodynamics" which only applies to a closed system, which the human body is not one.

The caloric models that are touted are based on trying to get everyone to eat a plant/carb based diet, it doesn't work as a model when you aren't eating a predominantly carb based diet because of the reasons I've outlined above.
 
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Caporegime
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No, I didn't say I was losing weight eating 3000 calories every day, I said I wasn't gaining any weight. When I want to drop weight I fast.
As I already explained, protein requires 30% energy to convert to glucose, its thermogenic. Also the body produces a set amount of bile based on how much fat it thinks it requires, bile is required to process fat and excess fat is excreted (thats actually what makes your poo soft and not fibre and thats why the best outcomes are on zero fibre diets ref. Dr. Paul Mason et al)
I also do more excercise on this diet because I actually have the energy to do so (not surprising eating ~3000 calories a day rather than starving myself)

If you eat low calories for an extended period of time whilst consuming foods which spike insulin (telling your body to store fat instead of burn it) then your BMR drops chronically low, your hormones become a mess (a third of the testosterone I have now), you have no energy etc.
Refeeds are a thing in dieting for exactly this reason. My BMR based on several different calculations should be around 1800-1900, so excercise should drive this higher, however I know that on 1500 calories for more than a couple of weeks my fat loss drops to zero, so their method of BMR calculation doesn't work.

None of this is controversial, this is basic biology. It does not break any "law of thermodynamics" which only applies to a closed system, which the human body is not one.

The caloric models that are touted are based on trying to get everyone to eat a plant/carb based diet, it doesn't work as a model when you aren't eating a predominantly carb based diet because of the reasons I've outlined above.

Again, a lot of this sounds very brosciency without citation. The world of things like bodybuilding would be very different if this diet worked exactly as you say it does for everyone.

It's also good to see that you've given a bit more information on other factors such as exercising more on this 3000 calorie a day diet. It's starting to make more sense.

Whatever it is about carbohydrates that affects you in such a way i.e. shoulder and hands aching, feeling hungover the next day, it's not the same for everyone.
 
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Soldato
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My friend did, this was back in 2012. I recall we went to a restaurant and have a very clear memory of her asking the waitress to swap the bread for something else.

I think I tried it for like a week....didn't like it. I went think thinking a diet of meat and cheese is great but I like flavour, I like sauces, I like to eat a combination of vegetables with meat, like I like a burger in a bun. I like food....so I binned it after like a week. It is also expensive to eat Keto, I also can't eat too much dairy as my stomach can't handle it.

As for Carbs are not balanced, I never said eat only carbs, but carbs along with everything else.

As for "carbs serve no purpose"

Just google "Do we need Carbs" in google. First link is Harvard...https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/#:~:text=Foods%20high%20in%20carbohydrates%20are,bodily%20functions%20and%20physical%20activity.

And the 1st sentence is "Quality matters" which no one is advocating eating a ton of junk.

And I also know full well with regards to "humans don't need it, we used to be hunters, farming came later, blah blah blah". I am not advocating getting all your calories from carbs...I said the word balance so many times I lost count now. You probably have this image that I eat nothing but carbs....That's the rice portion I have with the meal.

Tofu, fish, prawns, ribs, chicken, eggs, duck, mushrooms, a ton of greens with every meal.
Look up Dr. Tim Noakes work on low carb athletes - they meet or exceed the efforts of carb based athletes, there are several world records now held by low carb athletes, so no exogenous carbs are not required - humans can convert protein to glucose via gluconeogenesis so any glucose requirement can be met via eating protein

It doesn't need to be expensive, even when I was eating a lot of steak it was less than I used to spend on a "balanced" diet, now I prefer burgers most days its £3.69 for a packet of mince (grass fed) plus half a pack of bacon, a few eggs, some butter, sour cream - its definitely less than £10 a day, I used to have £10 for just for lunch
 
Soldato
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Again, a lot of this sounds very brosciency without citation. The world of things like bodybuilding would be very different if this diet worked exactly as you say it does for everyone.

It's also good to see that you've given a bit more information on other factors such as exercising more on this 3000 calorie a day diet. It's starting to make more sense.

Whatever it is about carbohydrates that affects you in such a way, it's not the same for everyone.
Check through my posts in this thread, I have referenced about 6 studies on the subject, I also follow whats being worked on and there are several more studies just starting that are planning to dig in to this

for example there was https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10572853/
grass fed beef is one of the best dietary sources for phytochemicals

its not broscience at all, everything I've said is backed up by an actual study
as I said look up Dr. Tim Noakes work on low carb athletes (he used to be a proponent of carbs and wanted to debunk keto so did a study to try to prove that keto was bad but found the opposite)

All the big body builders and influencers are on gear anyway so not sure diet will make much difference when they are all dying in their 30's/40's


Whatever it is about carbohydrates that affects you in such a way i.e. shoulder and hands aching, feeling hungover the next day, it's not the same for everyone.
This is a really common finding within the low carb community, it was one of the things I was really skeptical about myself before I started but once I did I found the same thing - I actually had to have a sit on the end of my bed about a week in and have a cry because I couldn't believe what a difference it was having to the way I felt.
I'm pretty sure I had depression in hindsight too, and that is now resolved, I'm much happier and optimistic. I only tried zero carb because I was desperate to try anything by that point because nothing else had worked long term.

I know loads of people my age who are starting to get bad knees / shoulders / elbows etc., I just thought it was age, even the doc said he thought my hand was arthritis, but its now gone and it only comes back if I eat carbs - but as it has been proven that carbs are inflammatory it makes sense because its just triggering inflammation
Oxalates are also an issue, some people go oxalate free aswell/instead and get big improvements in some issues like these
 
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Caporegime
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Check through my posts in this thread, I have referenced about 6 studies on the subject, I also follow whats being worked on and there are several more studies just starting that are planning to dig in to this

for example there was https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10572853/
grass fed beef is one of the best dietary sources for phytochemicals

its not broscience at all, everything I've said is backed up by an actual study
as I said look up Dr. Tim Noakes work on low carb athletes (he used to be a proponent of carbs and wanted to debunk keto so did a study to try to prove that keto was bad but found the opposite)

All the big body builders and influencers are on gear anyway so not sure diet will make much difference when they are all dying in their 30's/40's

I made no mention of grass-fed beef or phytochemicals.

I also never said keto was bad, just that not everyone has the problems you seem to have with carbs causing all sorts of issues.

Dr Tim Noakes isn't the end-all, be-all on this either and seems to be a bit of a quack: https://www.reddit.com/r/ketoduped/comments/13il4of/tim_noakes_was_a_respected_sports_scientist_he/

Turns out he believes HIV/AIDS was a hoax, vaccines cause autism, vaccines shave 30 years off your life and climate change isn’t real.

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Again, citation needed on that last point.
 
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