It's a fair comment. But it's well known that there were people inside the stadium who didn't have tickets... so how are they not in the wrong?
Hillsborough inquest verdict.
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It's a fair comment. But it's well known that there were people inside the stadium who didn't have tickets... so how are they not in the wrong?
Caporegime
For those who do not seem to get it, or still believe false truths;
All 14 questions and answers.
All 14 questions and answers.
- Do you agree with the following statement which is intended to summarise the basic facts of the disaster: “Ninety-six people died as a result of the Disaster at Hillsborough Stadium on 15 April 1989 due to crushing in the central pens of the Leppings Lane terrace, following the admission of a large number of supporters to the Stadium through exit gates.”
YES
- Was there any error or omission in police planning and preparation for the semi-final on April 15, 1989, which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed on the day of the match?
YES - “The jury feel that there were major omissions in the 1989 operational order, including specific instructions for managing the crowd outside the LL turnstiles, specific instructions as to how the pens were to be filled and monitored, specific instructions as to who would be responsible for the monitoring of the pens.
- Was there any error or omission in policing on the day of the match which caused or contributed to a dangerous situation developing at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?
YES - The jury said: “Police response to the increasing crowds at Leppings Lane was slow and uncoordinated. The road closure and sweep of fans exacerbated the situation.” They said no filter cordons were used, no contingency plans made and atempts to close perimeter gates were too late.
- Was there any error or omission by commanding officers which caused or contributed to the crush on the terrace?
YES - The jury said: “Commanding officers should have ordered the closure of the central tunnel before the opening of gate C was requested as pens three and four were full.” They said commanding officers should have asked for figures and failed to recognise pens were at capacity.
- When the order was given to open the exit gates at the Leppings Lane end of the stadium, was there any error or omission by the commanding officers in the control box which caused or contributed to the crush on the terrace?
YES - The jury said: “Commanding officers did not inform officers in the inner concourse prior to the opening of gate C.” They said they failed to consider where fans would go and to consider the closure of the tunnel.
- Are you satisfied, so that you are sure, that those who died in the disaster were unlawfully killed?
YES - majority decision (7-2)
- Was there any behaviour on the part of the football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?”
NO - They were asked if behaviour may have caused or contributed. They answered NO.
- Were there any features of the design, construction and layout of the stadium which you consider were dangerous or defective and which caused or contributed to the disaster?
YES - The jury said: “Design and layout of the crush barriers in pen three and four were not fully compliant with the Green Guide.” They said the lack of dedicated turnstiles meant capacities could not be monitored and there were too few turnstiles. Signage to the side pens was inadequate.
- Was there any error or omission in the safety certification and oversight of Hillsborough Stadium that caused or contributed to the disaster?
YES - They said the safety certificate was never amended to reflect changes at the Leppings Lane end. The capacity figures were incorrectly calculated and the safety certificate had not been reissued since 1986.
- Was there any error or omission by Sheffield Wednesday and its staff in the management of the stadium and/or preparation for the semi-final match on April 15, 1989, which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed on the day of the match?
YES - The jury said: “The club did not approve the plans for dedicated turnstiles to each pen.” The club did not agree contingency plans with police and there was inaccurate information on the tickets.
- Was there any error or omission by Sheffield Wednesday and its staff on April 15, 1989, which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed at the Leppings Lane turnstiles and in the west terrace?
NO - They were asked if any error or omission MAY have contributed or caused the dangerous situation. They answered YES. The jury said: “Club officials were aware of the huge numbers of fans still outside the LL turnstiles at 2.40pm. They should have requested a delayed kick off at this point.
- Should Eastwood and Partners (structural engineers) have done more to detect and advise on any unsafe or unsatisfactory features of Hillsborough Stadium which caused or contributed to the disaster?
YES - They said: “Eastwoods did not make their own calculations when they became consultants for Sheffield Wednesday FC.” They said calculations were incorrect and Eastwoods failed to recalculate capacities and update the safety certificate after 1986. They said Eastwoods failed to recognise the removal of crush barriers could create a dangerous situation.
- After the crush in the west terrace had begun to develop, was there any error or omission by the police which caused or contributed to the loss of lives in the disaster?
YES - They said the police delayed calling a major incident. There was a lack of communication, coordination and command and control.
- After the crush in the west terrace had begun to develop, was there any error or omission by the ambulance service (SYMAS) which caused or contributed to the loss of lives in the disaster?
YES - They said ambulance officers at the scene failed to ascertain the nature of the problem and the failure to call a major incident led to delays in responses to the emergency.
Caporegime
They should not have been allowed in to the stadium.
Man of Honour
To be fair, and this is just an assumption, that the poster is to young, that this was a long time ago now and younger people don't really understand the extent of the tragedy and what followed. Younger people only understand a safer concious society which was very different at the time. It's up to everyone to make sure that they and everyone understands so that this doesn't happen again and more importantly, the memory of those that perished.
I hope the families can find peace and begin to move on.
@Scam.. I suggest you do some research and fact finding before posting anything damning. Ask any questions by all means if here is something you're not clear about.
See above.. whilst this statement is true, it's always in hindsight.. there just wasn't the health and safety standards like we have today. You can't compare what we have to today with 27 years ago..I believe the Hillsborough was a pivotal moment in modern history and the evolution of a safer society. But like most things, it's always at a big cost
Really? Well known by who?
And how many of them were there? and how in your well educated opinion on the matter, did they contribute to what happened?
Please enlighten us.
No idea how many, but plenty of witness statements echo the same.
How might they have contributed? Well if 100 people can fit into a space, doesn't really matter how those 100 people get into said space does it? There is room for them. Now if 120 people try and get into that same space there is going to be some issues...
Police handled it appallingly, but behaviour of some fans contributed... police aren't 100% to blame. Just my view on it. Hindsight is a brilliant thing. Fortunately lessons have been learnt.
Hope this brings some closure to those families though.
Soldato
I always thought the police gave the order to open the gates because people were being crushed outside, the police had failed to prevent a build up of ticketless fans directly outside the gates.
Perhaps I'm wrong.
There's no doubt the subsequent actions of the police and delays in allowing people to escape the pens caused more to die though.
I'm not attributing any blame on the fans though. I've been a ticketless fan and many games in the 80s and was actually at the Rangers game that day at Celtic park. Everyone wanted to get into the "Jungle" and after 10 mins of being very uncomfortable they opened the gates to the other pens. I was, for want of a better term, "rolled" along the fence on my back until I "fell" through the open gate. I'm lucky that on that same day the police and steward saw the problem and acted decisively.
RIP the 96.
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Man of Honour
For some it will be a painful memory, for many here probably not seen before but has to been seen to understand why justice had to and has been seen to be done:
Man of Honour
Those bloody gates.. I remember those things.. It felt like we were penned in animals and tbh, that's how society saw most football fans at the time. I'm glad things have changed so much for the better.
I remember those things.. It felt like we were penned in animals and tbh, that's how society saw most football fans at the time. I'm glad things have changed so much for the better.
I can remember watching it live, I was 12, the reality of what was going on didn't really register at the time, it was only later in the afternoon that the gravity of what occurred registered.
A neighbour across the road from me was there, how wowed never to go back to that stadium ever again, he has never spoke to me about what he witnessed.
A neighbour across the road from me was there, how wowed never to go back to that stadium ever again, he has never spoke to me about what he witnessed.
Those bloody gates..
This wasn't long after Heysel.
This is a common misapprehension. The stand wasn't full at the time of the crush. Only the central pen was. Therefore there's no logical reason to suppose that ticketlessness was a contributory factor.
Soldato
Thanks for these Cosimo will watch tonight.
Caporegime
Bob Dylan said; 'don't criticise what you don't understand'. People should take this advice.
Again, there's no evidence that ticketlessness had anything to do with the crush outside. Supporters arrived late, there was road works, traffic jams and it was a hot, sunny day, fans in no rush to get into the ground early. The Police knew all this and refused to delay kick-off. They were responsible for the initial crush outside, as well as the crush inside. That was determined 20 years ago in the Taylor Report.
this really, sure the police at the very least were negligent and frankly there is now evidence that they were worse than negligent and some in command positions completely lacked any moral courage and seemingly exacerbated the situation while trying to cover their own arses
on the other hand that we now know some of the police were inept and worse doesn't suddenly turn all the fans into saints - no one forced people to push their way in
there was a big problem with football hooliganism at the time and especially with some sections of the Liverpool fan base, just because there are people in authority that quite rightly should be held to account doesn't mean that others are blameless - you don't need anywhere near the level of crowd control at say a cricket match and that is down portions of the fan base at football matches who can't behave themselves
Soldato
Those bloody gates..
Having been bundled into Luton shops on several occasions by my father to avoid rampaging away fans kicking seven shades out of anyone wearing a Luton scarf in the 1970's; society wasn't far of the mark thinking that.
but that is part of the problem... if you've got a big group of people who behave like that in general when entering venues etc.. then it just increases the chance of things going wrong - throw in the police being inept and making appaling decisions and you get disasters like this
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