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What do gamers actually think about Ray-Tracing?

Soldato
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12 May 2014
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the ps5 pro is rumoured to have upto 4x the ray tracing chops of the vanilla PS5.
Just after the release of the RX7000 series a comparison between the the 3090, 4090 and the 7900xtx was doing the rounds.

One noteable thing from that comparison was that performance scaled quite poorly with raw RT performance. Though that could have been a limitation of the NVIDIA RT architecture.
 
Soldato
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6,850
a decade? i just dont see it myself.
AMD / Nvidia need something to keep gamers paddling uphill.

8k is not mainstream and tbh i am not sure it even needs to be, 3D is dead (sadly)........... other than VR ray tracing is the only thing which can push the current generation of high end gpus over the edge.

what else are they going to add to games to make us want to splash cash.... unless they dont care any more and just want to sell to AI companies.
 

D3K

D3K

Soldato
Joined
13 Nov 2014
Posts
3,736
a decade? i just dont see it myself.
AMD / Nvidia need something to keep gamers paddling uphill.

8k is not mainstream and tbh i am not sure it even needs to be, 3D is dead (sadly)........... other than VR ray tracing is the only thing which can push the current generation of high end gpus over the edge.

what else are they going to add to games to make us want to splash cash.... unless they dont care any more and just want to sell to AI companies.

Clue is at the end of your post - AI. At the exponential rate of AI advance, e.g. Sora, we'll see a time where AI can create games on the fly for us based on prompts. And given nvidia are all over hardware for AI, they'll be selling us that as well.
 
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Soldato
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Belfast
Yes true, hence my decade prediction and that is optimistic IMHO. The PS5 pro is an incremental upgrade and that means PS6 is about 2 - 4 years away and that might be more of a transitional step as well. Consoles might be at 4090 type performance in 10 years.
 
Man of Honour
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South Coast
AI created games will be a thing in the next 5-10 years. Jensen said this recently as well as a few months ago when showing off the AI noodle bar demo. And yeah given how fast things are happening, I think it will be far sooner than 5-10 years, especially since all of the tools are provided free by Nvidia for modders to get dug into, and we all know how good modders are compared to first party developers.

Throwing another debate into the mix, and it applies to RT since ray reconstruction is involved. DLAA vs DLSS, most people will automatically assume DLAA is the visually superior method, it has a high fps impact as it's applying AA at native res, so must be better, right?

Wrong!

Comp 1:
https://imgsli.com/MjQ4OTM5

Comp 2:
https://imgsli.com/MjQ4OTQx

Comp 3:
https://imgsli.com/MjQ4OTQy

Comp 4:
https://imgsli.com/MjQ4OTQz

Comp 5:
https://imgsli.com/MjQ4OTQ0


I'm interested in seeing what Horizon Forbidden West looks like with a similar comparison later on as there's no RT and thus no Ray reconstruction to further improve the visual quality of shadows/lighting using DLSS. I suspect the texture detail and sharpness will still be better in DLSS because of the image reconstruction step applied to the output resolution, whilst the visual features remain the same since it's all raster and nothing here is touched.
 
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Soldato
Joined
14 Aug 2009
Posts
2,790
a decade? i just dont see it myself.
AMD / Nvidia need something to keep gamers paddling uphill.

8k is not mainstream and tbh i am not sure it even needs to be, 3D is dead (sadly)........... other than VR ray tracing is the only thing which can push the current generation of high end gpus over the edge.

what else are they going to add to games to make us want to splash cash.... unless they dont care any more and just want to sell to AI companies.

There's no need for a decade or even 5 years. RT is here, now, and as Metro proved it, it can be run pretty well even on consoles when done right.
Sure, things will improve in terms of fidelity, but so has happened with raster.

Horzion may look good, after many, many hours, but you can't really escape the fakery of raster. Some limitations won't be overpassed and can't be.
 

TNA

TNA

Caporegime
Joined
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Location
Greater London
There's no need for a decade or even 5 years. RT is here, now, and as Metro proved it, it can be run pretty well even on consoles when done right.
Sure, things will improve in terms of fidelity, but so has happened with raster.

Horzion may look good, after many, many hours, but you can't really escape the fakery of raster. Some limitations won't be overpassed and can't be.

Pretty sure we are talking about a time where it is RT only games dude. That is not here now and won't be anytime soon either.

In my view it will all be tied to console hardware. Can you see PS6 doing that? I can't. So then that leaves PS7. When is that you think? :p

Right now they need to make the raster one and tack RT on top. When it is the case where no need to tack it on top and games are made with RT from the start then we will be there imo.
 
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Caporegime
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4 Jun 2009
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31,052
It's basically what I said here....

Personally my take is, there is nothing wrong with the RT tech itself but as they somewhat touched upon the issue is the price point to get a decent experience, you basically need a 7900xt or 3080+ to really enjoy it and appreciate it and going forward when as shown, games start to use heavier RT, you ideally need a 4070ti super/4080+ so sadly, lots just won't use it, which is a valid view point of course, for me, as long as I can maintain ideally 70/80 fps, I'm good, although ideally do want to get 100+ fps, which is somewhat possible tbf with upscaling and frame gen, even on the 3+ year old 3080 with the exception of AW 2 and cp 2077 PT.

Not to be that guy..... but the biggest issue is there is a massive lack of knowledge and awareness on what RT actually is and what it sets out to achieve as well as who really benefits from it as well as just being outright oblivious to the advantages it offers over dated methods. The other problem is people who just look at something like BF 5, tomb raider and go "rt sucks!!!" and ignore every other game.

RT is primarily a way to benefit developers first and foremost, games are incredibly hard to make and in a world where cost cutting is more important than ever (particularly in the development/tech world), this is to aid them in being able to deliver quicker, remember that scene showing 4a enhanced workflow, 1 scene/frame for lighting, shadows etc. where it took them 30-50 minutes to get somewhat ok looking compared to the instantaneous setup of RT? That's an incredible amount of time and money saved there but obviously to get the most from this, developers will have to stop supporting raster methods too otherwise it is a duplicate effort in some ways (but alas with any new tech, there is also a learning curve). This will naturally happen over time where RT will be always on to some form and you won't even have a choice to disable it entirely as we are starting to see now, ps 5 being the main platform to showcase this (avatar is on all platforms and of course metro ee [although was more of a tech demo really]), this is also showing in the raster vs rt scenes where devs are basically putting no effort into raster to get it looking great and it is starting to become more evident.

The 2 main hurdles for RT advancement is the weak console hardware and devs still supporting raster, I think the biggest step in RT progress will come with the next gen consoles where next gen consoles will have better RT hardware support and probably use hardware mode for RT and the current gen consoles will fall back to more software based RT. IIRC, on steam, isn't it something like 70/80% of hardware has support for RT now?

I also think a large part of the hate/anti RT is also because nvidia have done a rather clever game with all their RTX marketing to make people think RT is a nvidia thing and naturally, when nvidia are first to something or leading the way, it gets hated on or rather it's not an important feature/advantage to have but then when/if amd catch up or overtake, it's the next best thing and vice versa to when amd are first and nvidia are catching up e.g. just look at the upscaling and frame gen situation.

Ultimately I think people just need to accept that raster is on its way out, majority of games coming out (since RT became a thing in the gaming scene) is only growing and growing, most game engines have RT built in now, UE 5 (which a lot of games are using going forward) uses software RT with support for hardware RT, console games are using RT and some are providing no option to disable it, amd, intel are all onboard with it too not to mention, chipset makers too.
 
Caporegime
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31,052
Agreed. Will PS6 do this? Possibly, just can't see it though.

Well it all comes down to the games and how long they have been in development for, games can be in development for 7-10 years, average being iirc, 3-4 years so games that were already in development or in the phases of just being started on are more likely to have RT on top rather than a from the ground up implementation like metro ee and given the state of things as evidenced, more and more games are using RT these days and the raster effects are starting to look rather awful looking in these games. I don't think we'll see too many titles like metro ee or PT like cp 2077 and aw 2 for some time but we will definetly see more titles like avatar and spiderman 2 where there will be no fallback to raster only graphical effects.
 
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Caporegime
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Well it all comes down to the games and how long they have been in development for, games can be in development for 7-10 years, average being iirc, 3-4 years so games that were already in development or in the phases of just being started on are more likely to have RT on top rather than a from the ground up implementation like metro ee and given the state of things as evidenced, more and more games are using RT these days and the raster effects are starting to look rather awful looking in these games. I don't think we'll see too many titles like metro ee or PT like cp 2077 and aw 2 for some time but we will definetly see more titles like avatar and spiderman 2 where there will be no fallback to raster only graphical effects.

PS7 I tells ya!

When will that be roughly? A decade give or take a couple of years? :D

In the meantime though unlike many other here it seems, I am happy to see RT is available in any shape or form. It will only get better from here.

Can't wait for RTX Remix games man! Especially the original Deus Ex!
 
Caporegime
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PS7 I tells ya!

When will that be roughly? A decade give or take a couple of years? :D

In the meantime though unlike many other here it seems, I am happy to see RT is available in any shape or form. It will only get better from here.

Can't wait for RTX Remix games man! Especially the original Deus Ex!

Don't forget, we will have better upscaling for the ps 5 pro along with better RT perf from the sounds of it too and possibly frame generation and no doubt the xbox refresh will also have much the same. Also, with AI being used to excel everything now including the design of chips etc. who knows what the scene will look like come ps 6 time.....
 
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Caporegime
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Don't forget, we will have better upscaling for the ps 5 pro along with better RT perf from the sounds of it too and possibly frame generation and no doubt the xbox refresh will also have much the same. Also, with AI being used to excel everything now including the design of chips etc. who knows what the scene will look like come ps 6 time.....

One can only hope. Just don't hold breath. As it still needs to be a card that does not cost an arm and a leg.
 
Soldato
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2,790
Pretty sure we are talking about a time where it is RT only games dude. That is not here now and won't be anytime soon either.

In my view it will all be tied to console hardware. Can you see PS6 doing that? I can't. So then that leaves PS7. When is that you think? :p

Right now they need to make the raster one and tack RT on top. When it is the case where no need to tack it on top and games are made with RT from the start then we will be there imo.

Metro EE already proved in can run well on consoles long ago. Hopefully we won't get a crap SKU like Series S next time to hold things back too much.
 

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Caporegime
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Metro EE already proved in can run well on consoles long ago. Hopefully we won't get a crap SKU like Series S next time to hold things back too much.

You can quote this if you want. But I highly doubt the next xbox will be going primarily RT.

It will take time for the transition as mentioned above.
 
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