AV amp choices between Onkyo and Pioneer

[Mr Latte]

I can agree with what your saying james to a point that power ratings are misleading sometimes and different brands perhaps use different ways to determine power output or total dynamic output. Further to this the lower end products id suspect from not just Yamaha but other brands dont quite cut the mustard in raw power terms. This is more to do with the quality of their amplification than the rated power. You will find the Yamaha is not very different in power terms to other leading brands.

My own current Yamaha RX-V4600 uses pretty much the same amplification as this new 1800 model. Its certainly won accolades in the past and also indeed did its successor. So in terms of its amplification really its using what seems as 2-3 generation old amplification.

Comprising of:
7-Channel 910W Powerful Surround Sound (130W x 7 RMS according to Yamaha. To be honest although i dont find it incredibly powerfull i never usually have to take the volume higher than -20 with -30 a comfortable listening level even in 7 channel stereo. The amp itself goes from -80 to + 16 using the digital volume display. So im still well within the units highest ratings in a 16x10 room.


Frank said the following earlier:
Well I guess thats one way to put it - I havent yet put the volume up too far, but hoping to tonight "
Frank also mentioned he had the Pioneer so i suppose hes in a postion of comparing (see below) from experience not just suggested ratings. |We all may prefer the sound of one product to annother but max power ratings are a silly way of determining a products potential. Hell i even dont go by magazine reviews now as these are usually not very accurate or favoured to suit the brands that advertise more with the publishers.

Surely power efficency comes into things as well. Different amps may be different in this regard with some being more econimical in their power usage-power output ratios. Onkyo across all of their products that i looked exceed other brands in power usage, id hardly imagine this to mean that every single Onkyo product that does then exceeds the volume levels or indeed the "quality" of sound produced for each unit compared to other brands. This wont be the case at all.

In fairness Denon seem to be on the higher scale of power consumption too but i havnt compared many of their products...


Comparisons:

YAMAHA RXV1800
7x130w (6Ω, 20Hz - 20kHz and 0.06% THD)
17.4kg
450W


PIONEER VSX-LX60 THX Home Cinema Receiver
7x150W (1kHz, 1%THD and 6Ω)
15.3kg
450w

DENON AVR 2808
7x 110W (8 ohms, 20Hz-20kHz, 0.08% THD)
14kg
6 Amps (USA spec: No of Amps * Voltage = Watts) 6x120 volts = 720 Watts

ONYKO TXSR805
130Wpc Continuous 8ohms, 20-20,000Hz (2 channels driven)
23.3kg
870W

Regards THX labelling and Yamaha, back in the old pre digital days Yamaha didnt need THX because well they exceeded it with their own enchanced surround and DSP modes. Id imagine such a badge is costly to acquire in licensing fees even though they use it on their higher upmarket models as im sure a selling feature for the quality concious and the fact that other competing brands use it to help sell their products too. Chances are many of the required criteria for whatever THX specs need to meet are already being met even if the product itself isnt THX branded.

Just to point out my RX-V4600 which seems to use the same amplification IS THX Select 2 rated (Like the Newest Pioneer VSX-LX60 ) yet the new Yamaha RX-V1800 isnt. Im sure it will make absolutely no difference in audio terms just because they havnt paid the licensce fees this time for this level of product. Denon also seem to have dropped the THX licenscing on their 2808 & 4308 sub £2000 products.

Besides whats the point in having somehing rated like THX ULTRA II if your room doesnt meet the required status for the specification. The Select 2 level meets most living rooms having a listening area approx 10-12 FT from the source. THX ULTRA II on the other hand is for larger living areas and suitable for a room with a distance greater than 12 FT than the source.

Id be interested in knowing exactly what determins THX level of certification because i see it as nothing more than a lavish label, lets face it their are lots of THX branded product that dont live upto their status, so i really question the licensce/quality assurance.


Back to you guys...

 

[Shimmyhill]

How big your PSU is rated has little effect on how much volume it can produce. Onkyo have a brute force approach to amplifying hence the obscene heat they generate. Of course the cheaper amps have pretty poor PSUs and therefore do fall far short of amping all chanels to the quoted 2 chan figure. When you move up the scales a fair whack of the benefit is better power amping comming from better psu(s)

I liked the sound of the Onkyo in AV mode so i am not knocking its output, just the way it goes about doing it - my electricity bill is extreme enough as it is

 

[Deleted member 651465]

Also, the Onkyo is one ugly amp!

If this Yamaha turns out to be half decent then it could be interesting

 

[Oops Dead Again]

I'm looking at this little beauty next

Denon AVR-4308DAB - HD Network Wi-fi 7.1 AV receiver

 

[Oops Dead Again]

Features:-

• HDMI 1.3a repeater with 4 inputs and 2 outputs
• Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD decoders (HDMI 1.3a).
• Deep Colour and xvYCC support (HDMI 1.3a).
• Auto Lip Sync (HDMI 1.3a).
• All analogue and digital video upscalable to 1080p.
• DenonLink3 ultra-high-speed audio interface.
• Full Networking with Wi-fi & Ethernet Built-in.
• Selectable USB ports (Front/Rear).
• iPod Ready (using the Denon ASD-1R & newer).
• Music streaming from PC & Mac (with UPnP).
• AAC, MP3, WAV, WMA lossless, FLAC.
• Photo streaming from PC or Mac (with UPnP) (JPEG)
• PC setup and control via Ethernet / Wi-fi
• Remote diagnosis, update and upgrade
• Internet Radio V2.0 extended - 7000 + stations
• Network setup (Web Control) function
• Up to 4 zone room-to-room capability
• Identical quality and 170 watt power for all 7 channels.
• 3 independent power transformers.
• 9 independent power supply circuits.
• Denon’s Dynamic Discrete Surround Circuit HD.
• Denon proprietary Advanced AL24 for ALL channels.
• Two remote controls for Main and Sub Zones.
• Highest Spec MultEQ XT from Audyssey.
• Auto set-up and Room EQ.
• Unified music interface for iPod and all streaming.
• DAB Tuner Ultra-sensitive with all info on the GUI.

 

[carlazai]

And cost?

Looks very well specced so guessing it comes with a hefty price tag

 

[badbob]

If you go into high end av amps, it's better to go down seperate av pre-power. I can change my av pre-amp later for a newer model, and still use the poweramps I've paid for. ie buy a couple of Rotel/Parasound/Nad/Bryston poweramps and keep them for several av pre-amp upgrades.

 

[Mr Latte]

The 4308 has a very nice spec:
Then again its approx £1800

Im not sure its worth the extra money having USB and networking abilities as really a lot of people will use a PC or PS3 for such ways of delivering their media and of course these would already be connected to the AV amp.

Apart from that you get DAB which again is it really needed? Seems your left paying a lot of money on technology you wont really need or already have. To be fair its the same with the YAMAHA RXV3800 it offers quite a bit over the RXV1800 including networking and USB with fancy GUI but doesnt have the multiroom 1080p support of the Denon 4308. However compare the price and the specs as the RXV3800 is available (£1159 online) which isnt a lot more than the RXV1800 and certainly spec-price comparison to the Denon much better value unless you need DAB and 1080p multiroom experience.

Id agree that having say a Denon 2808 and upgrading all the amplification to a more musical and better quality stereo or a single multichannel power amp to something like an AUDIOLAB would in turn create a better sounding system. Then again some people want all the bells and whistles and have it all in one box solution so it depends on what the user seeks most.

One things for sure though the £800 - £1000 AV amps really do offer great tech/specs for their price when you start comparing to the higher models.

 

[FrankJH]

Regards THX labelling and Yamaha, back in the old pre digital days Yamaha didnt need THX because well they exceeded it with their own enchanced surround and DSP modes. Id imagine such a badge is costly to acquire in licensing fees even though they use it on their higher upmarket models as im sure a selling feature for the quality concious and the fact that other competing brands use it to help sell their products too. Chances are many of the required criteria for whatever THX specs need to meet are already being met even if the product itself isnt THX branded.

Just to point out my RX-V4600 which seems to use the same amplification IS THX Select 2 rated (Like the Newest Pioneer VSX-LX60 ) yet the new Yamaha RX-V1800 isnt. Im sure it will make absolutely no difference in audio terms just because they havnt paid the licensce fees this time for this level of product. Denon also seem to have dropped the THX licenscing on their 2808 & 4308 sub £2000 products.

Besides whats the point in having somehing rated like THX ULTRA II if your room doesnt meet the required status for the specification. The Select 2 level meets most living rooms having a listening area approx 10-12 FT from the source. THX ULTRA II on the other hand is for larger living areas and suitable for a room with a distance greater than 12 FT than the source.

Id be interested in knowing exactly what determins THX level of certification because i see it as nothing more than a lavish label, lets face it their are lots of THX branded product that dont live upto their status, so i really question the licensce/quality assurance.


Back to you guys...

I personally wouldnt say its actually possible to exceed external quality control - let alone the actual THX "sound" each of their licensed amps grants.


but thats just my way of thinking

 

[badbob]

hee hee THX Ultra av pre-amp here..
THX Select is just a lower end certifications.

 

[Mr Latte]

hee hee THX Ultra av pre-amp here..
THX Select is just a lower end certifications.

Whats the difference in terms of quality/performance requirements?
Do THX explain these as many various brands can be labelled with various THX labelling but when you go to compare a few that are labelled identically lets say ULTRA II spec products the actual specifications can vary a hellava lot.

Is it not kinda like having a Ferrari but limited to driving it in a carpark?
Assuming of course we dont all live in mansions but instead your average sized living room? My point is Ultra II spec is designed for people with such large rooms, it essientially doesnt guarntee better quality but rather that it can achieve the desiered quality within much larger rooms and viewing distances, well thats my take on it from their own website.

For Example compare the Onkyo 805 to even the 905 or indeed the top end Yamaha or Denon models that are ULTRA II
One costs £800+ the other brands are well over £3000+ you telling me the Onkyo is going to match them in audio terms?

Its further evidence of how over used the labelling is and it seems many manufacturers as proof in Yamaha and now Denon have been dropping it.
Still it makes a nice sig eh james lol.

In all seriousness i think it really guarntees nothing to the typical end user in performance terms.

 

[james.miller]

thx is a minimum level of performance. amps can, of course, exceed that level. i dont think yamaha not needing thx in the old days really makes much of a difference here. its not as if they are being paid to carry the certification as an incentive to change their views on THX either - it would be costing them instead. my point was, they both have thx certification, but the 2700 managed selectII while the 805 got ultraII. i have no idea whether there is a cost different between gaining the two certifications (which may hint at yamah not willing to pay the difference if there is one), id just be speculating

My point is Ultra II spec is designed for people with such large rooms, it essientially doesnt guarntee better quality but rather that it can achieve the desiered quality within much larger rooms and viewing distances, well thats my take on it from their own website.

well thats what ive be getting at all along. reference level performance in a larger room require more power all round, that much you know. the 805 and upwards are certified to deliver it, the yamaha isnt, further indicating the yamaha isnt up to the standards set by the onkyo's. it actually seems far more inline audio-wise with the 705 i think im beginning to sound like a bit of a fanboy. believe me im not, its just that these amps really do deliver and deserve the praise they are getting in the reviews

/ot-ish - THX labs are extremely tight lipped about what exactly is needed to qualify for THX certification. this is the only info i can find on the differences between select and ultra for an amplifier:

When it comes to amplification, continuous output tests are run on up to one, four, and five channels (simultaneously) of an Ultra product, but only one at a time on Select. With all products, the dynamic amplifier tests are done on up to all available channels. Ultra amplifiers must be stable on all channels to 3.2 ohms and swing an 18A peak, while Select products must be stable into 4 ohms (front channel) and 8 ohms (surrounds), and swing peaks of 12.5A and 6.2A respectively.

So, right off the bat, Select amplifiers have a lower bar to reach, but ultimately in meeting it, they will still cleanly drive any reasonably designed speaker to reference level in a Select-size room. What we are talking about here is the idea that the lower powered equipment can get a THX certification that will assure consumers that the really affordable stuff has met certain standards like the high-end equipment.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_1/feature-article-thx-1-2006-part-4.html and apparently, this is a list of tests which have minimum requirements to gain certification:

Metrics Tested on THX Amplifiers:

Reference Output Voltage
Voltage Gain
Output Current
Output Source Impedance
Overload Restoring Time
Stability with Capacitive Load
Harmonic Distortion and Noise
Modulation Distortion
Difference-Frequency Distortion
Noise Output Voltage
Phase Response
D.C. Offset at the Output
Hum
Crosstalk
Acoustic Noise Level
Mechanical Noise
Input Sensitivity
Input Impedance
Output Impedance
Load Impedance Range
Voltage Output Capability
Current Output Capability
Transient Output Capability
Transient Overload Recovery Time
Asymmetrical Clipping
Frequency Response
Phase Response
Phase Margin
Time
Total Harmonic Distortion
Intermodulation Distortions
SMPTE IM Distortion
IHF IM Distortion
DIM 30 Distortion
Noise
Hum
Radiated Interference
Conducted Interference
Crosstalk

 

[Mr Latte]

Yes james good report but essientially where some people get confused is that they see a Ultra II amp thinking its guranteed to sound better than a Select II amp or any THX branded amp will sound better than a non THX branded one. Since when was louder guarnteed to mean better?

THX themselves do not provide technical specific requirements in important things like THD, sound damping, construction etc. Instead THX seems to mean if it can go loud enough it means it can meet the criteria for whatever certain badge the unit performs too. Take your 805 it clearly would get blown away with a Ultra II Denon yet both feature the same badge, to some comsumers they see it that the £800 Ultra II Onkyo will offer the same quality as a £4000 Ultra II Denon as both are labelled and assured to Ultra II THX Spec performance. Its just no way of accertaining performance imo because its so widely used and doesnt put forward what levels of quality specifics in performance must be accertained and how such specifics are evaluated.

Indeed each level of badging is designed to obtain performance at louder volumes and larger rooms but can i ask if you for instance are seated more than 12 feet away from your source to be in line with the Ultra II spec.

Do you feel you need Ultra II levels of volume? Whats the point in having a Ultra II spec if you run at 50% volume half the time? Select II should be more than capable of blowing away the cobwebs in most living rooms. Perhaps its nothing more than flashing a badge for some and the satisfaction that such a badge gives them with their purchase, they just feel better about it.

For me the Ultra II badge on your Onkyo means nothing more than your unit can sustain a louder volume compared to many other amps, additional volume i dont really need and personally id lose the badge and take the extra inputs on the Yamaha or Denon. It doesnt necessarily mean the quality or its performance will actually be better, thats were i think people get mislead, they see THX and think oh wow.

I look forward to the AV face offs featuring the new Denon,Yamaha,Pioneer and Onkyo. All will be good amps in their own right and each will have their own woes and flaws.
Although i wouldnt bet on the fact that the 805's Ultra II badge will make it run away with the reviews.

Appreciate the discussion....

 

[Alibaba99]

Yes id not doubt for a moment it is a wonderfull performer
However with upto a reported 870w power consumption it is a hungry beast and no doubt this and its weight 23.3kg are mostly down to the power supply/transformer within the unit.

As a comparison the Yamaha is indeed lighter @ 17.4 kg but it uses a rather modest 450w.
Somethings really weird with the Onkyo needing so much power particulary with both models supporting similar specs and amplification. However this is true across all of Onkyo's range when compared to Yamaha Denon or Pioneer an Onkyo similar product just drinks up more juice.

Infact you could run the Yamaha a PS3 and a X360 and STILL use less wattage than the Onkyo can use.
Unbeliveable but true according to this

I would be worried about the Yamaha's ability to drive difficult speaker loads (though maybe not so important if using an external sub) if it can only pull 450w total, as that would suggest that its current supply could be limited. My '90s Pioneer A400 hifi amp has a max draw of 520w.

To put it into perspective, a Cambridge Audio 640R has been measured at close to 2kW draw at full chat.

 

[james.miller]

oh i know, this is why im trying to dig up the specifics on what they test. im am sure some of those tests mentiond on the list are tightened up for ultra/ultraII.

THX themselves do not provide technical specific requirements in important things like THD, sound damping, construction etc.

i might have misunderstood this, but it seems they certainly do from that list.

Harmonic Distortion and Noise
Modulation Distortion
Difference-Frequency Distortion
Noise Output Voltage
Phase Response
D.C. Offset at the Output
Hum
Crosstalk
Acoustic Noise Level
Mechanical Noise

what i dont know, is the numbers involved and the variation (if any) between select/ultra and anything else.

For me the Ultra II badge on your Onkyo means nothing more than your unit can sustain a louder volume compared to many other amps, additional volume i dont really need and personally id lose the badge and take the extra inputs on the Yamaha or Denon. It doesnt necessarily mean the quality or its performance will actually be better, thats were i think people get mislead, they see THX and think oh wow.

i agree i said previously, ~75w is more than enough for most rooms in all honesty. people will rarely need more than that. but i believe with the ability to output its quoted wattage from all 7 channels simultaneously will only affect quality for the better. better current capabilites is the one thing i know ultra requires to be much higher - at least 18amp peak at 3.2ohm stable all channels for ultra, 12.5amp 4ohms stable fronts only for select - that a massive difference which affects the amps ability to drive difficult loads cleanly. amps are all about current as we know, not voltage. and that will influence sound quality at any volume level, not jsut flat out

im going to be doing some tests tomorrow with the help from a power meter. all i can say at the moment, is that the power draw at -20dba (0 being reference level of course) the power draw was a rather dull 140w or so playing 2 channel music

 

[Mr Latte]

Oh i see, mmm i think his wattage to power thing is getting a little out of hand....

Heres an example:

DENON AVCA1HD £3500+
Ultra II spec

Front 150W+150W (8 ohms, 20Hz-20kHz, 0.05% THD)
Centre 150W (8 ohms, 20Hz-20kHz, 0.05% THD)
Surround 150W+150W (8 ohms, 20Hz-20kHz, 0.05% THD)
Surround Back 150W+150W (8 ohms, 20Hz-20kHz, 0.05% THD
23.6kg
610W

Now are you telling me a Cambridge 640R or a Onkyo 805 because it requires a lot more power for its transformers/amplification will sound better?

James i think its obvious that the THX paramaters for performance are shall we say rather loose as are how it determines a level of quality. How can such an AV amp like this be within the same league in sound quality (forget volume levels) to a Onkyo 805, its ludicrious if some people would consider both to be in the same league in sound performance terms surely?

Wouldnt the quality of components and their efficency be a factor that makes the difference not just their power ratings.
Even the YAMAHA DSPZ11 Amplifier which is going to be one of the finest intergrated amps this year using:
7x140w and 2x50w only consumes 800w of juice and it uses some serious amplification and components weighing in at a whopping 35.9Kg.

 

[james.miller]

that wont be 610w, thats way off. to supply 150w x7 which i am certain it would do, it would be outputting over a kilowatt and thats at 8 ohms, goodness knows what the draw would be lol and no of course not - at that price there's very little compromise in the components used.

James i think its obvious that the THX paramaters for performance are shall we say rather loose as are how it determines a level of quality. How can such an AV amp like this be within the same league in sound quality (forget volume levels) to a Onkyo 805, its ludicrious if some people would consider both to be in the same league in sound performance terms surely?

but nobody has said this. its just a guarantee for a minimum performance level, thats all. nobody has said the 805 is up there with £4k amps (although it might be a little closer than some people may like)

Even the YAMAHA DSPZ11 Amplifier which is going to be one of the finest integrated amps this year using:
7x140w and 2x50w only consumes 800w of juice and it uses some serious amplification and components weighing in at a whopping 35.9Kg.

that actually worries me, coming from yamaha. i do not expect a flagship amplifier to drop power levels when all channels are drive but, if thats anything to go by......

also: "Power Output RMS (6Ω, 20 - 20kHz and 0.015% THD)" curtasy of avland. (7x140w + 4x50w). not quoted @ 8 ohms? i don believe their numbers tbh

 

[Mr Latte]

You can check the numbers on Yamaha's USA site i reckon theve just copied them over but yes time to time AV Land do get it wrong.

What it doesnt explain is how this and the Denon both being MONSTER AV amps with such relative low power wattage are both Ultra II spec like the power hungry Onkyo range.

So either the Ultra II spec requirements must not really require certain power requirements like you care to mention and have tried to explain regards music power or indeed theirs more to the equation and the efficency of these and other amps perhaps dont need as much power to gain similar musical wattage?

Im no expert by any means (thats obvious) but i think we clearly have issues relating to what exactly Ultra II means to the consumer / how its reputation is regarded and what it really means in performance terms other than "hey dude it goes loud, awesome"

Out of the AV amps i compared it seems the Pioneer has higher THD ratings yet even it is still THX SELECT II rated and some would look at that badge again and think its better than the Yamaha without fully understanding, yet the Yamaha's THD ratings are among the lowest/best as is Denon.

Its all rather confusing going by rated power consumption - wattage output - sound quality levels. Besides whos to say they are accurate are car mpg accurate?

The only way is for people to compare in demos but then again quite often the louder sounding component can sometimes be confused as the best sounding. That and of course eveyone has their own preferences.

 

[Alibaba99]

Oh i see, mmm i think his wattage to power thing is getting a little out of hand....

Heres an example:

DENON AVCA1HD £3500+
Ultra II spec

Front 150W+150W (8 ohms, 20Hz-20kHz, 0.05% THD)
Centre 150W (8 ohms, 20Hz-20kHz, 0.05% THD)
Surround 150W+150W (8 ohms, 20Hz-20kHz, 0.05% THD)
Surround Back 150W+150W (8 ohms, 20Hz-20kHz, 0.05% THD
23.6kg
610W

Now are you telling me a Cambridge 640R or a Onkyo 805 because it requires a lot more power for its transformers/amplification will sound better?

James i think its obvious that the THX paramaters for performance are shall we say rather loose as are how it determines a level of quality. How can such an AV amp like this be within the same league in sound quality (forget volume levels) to a Onkyo 805, its ludicrious if some people would consider both to be in the same league in sound performance terms surely?

Wouldnt the quality of components and their efficency be a factor that makes the difference not just their power ratings.
Even the YAMAHA DSPZ11 Amplifier which is going to be one of the finest intergrated amps this year using:
7x140w and 2x50w only consumes 800w of juice and it uses some serious amplification and components weighing in at a whopping 35.9Kg.

The size of the power supply obviously isn't a direct measure of how the amp sounds. It does however indicate if the amp will have the capability to drive difficult speaker loads especially to higher volumes.

 

[james.miller]

You can check the numbers on Yamaha's USA site i reckon theve just copied them over but yes time to time AV Land do get it wrong.

What it doesnt explain is how this and the Denon both being MONSTER AV amps with such relative low power wattage are both Ultra II spec like the power hungry Onkyo range.

well, thats simple. it seem the '800 watts' on the back is not the power draw at all. but rather the maximum power output maybe?

http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/...5000300&ATRID=1020&DETYP=ATTRIBUTE&RLTID=1504

Specifications
Channels 11.2
RMS Output Power (20Hz - 20kHz) 140W x 7 + 50W x 4
RMS Output Power (1kHz)
Total Power (20Hz - 20kHz) 1,180W

total power ~1.2kw but a draw of 800? that wouldnt just be a miracle, it'd be impossible lol

So either the Ultra II spec requirements must not really require certain power requirements like you care to mention and have tried to explain regards music power or indeed theirs more to the equation and the efficency of these and other amps perhaps dont need as much power to gain similar musical wattage?

i dont know. this is why im trying to find out exactly what the tolerances of these tests are

Im no expert by any means (thats obvious) but i think we clearly have issues relating to what exactly Ultra II means to the consumer / how its reputation is regarded and what it really means in performance terms other than "hey dude it goes loud, awesome"

yes i know. without any indication of what those specifications are other than what is tested, all you can say is one is better than the other. how much better is next to impossible to quantify but crucially it is better.

Out of the AV amps i compared it seems the Pioneer has higher THD ratings yet even it is still THX SELECT II rated and some would look at that badge again and think its better than the Yamaha without, yet the Yamaha's THD ratings are among the best like Denon.

thats an age old problem with amplifiers isn't it? quote the power, little higher distortion than the competition - thats fine as long as it looks like we have the more powerful amplifier.....
vsx-lx70 - 7x150W (1kHz{ single tone only}, 1%THD and 6Ω)
tx-sr805 - 130x7W (20 Hz–20 kHz {full range}, 0.05%THD and 8ohm)

Its all rather confusig going by rated power consumption - wattage output - sound quality levels.

The only way is for people to compare in demos but then again quite often the louder sounding component can sometimes be confused as the best sounding. That and of course everyone has their own preferences.

completely. your own ears as ever are the best judge but it is scary what some peopel will call 'better'