Liverpool FC - Official Thread

[NokkonWud]

IMO, all four clubs only have one stand out striker. Arsenal have VP, Man United have Rooney, Chelsea have Drogba and we have Torres. After those four players there isn't a lot to separate us and certainly not enough for you to say Arsenal, Chelsea and United have more strength than us.

Liverpool have Torres.
Chelsea have 3 good finishers (Kalou, Drogba and Shevchenko)
Arsenal have 3 good finishers (Adebayor, Van Persie and Eduardo)
Man Utd have 3 good finishers (Rooney, Tevez and Saha)

All of those players are goal scorers.
Torres is a goal scorer, Voronin just doesn't look like he can do it and Kuyt is a really hard worker, but he's not a goal scorer. I'm a fan of Crouch though.

All I'm saying is, the 3 have goal scorers.

 

[BaZ87]

Liverpool have Torres.
Chelsea have 3 good finishers (Kalou, Drogba and Shevchenko)
Arsenal have 3 good finishers (Adebayor, Van Persie and Eduardo)
Man Utd have 3 good finishers (Rooney, Tevez and Saha)

All of those players are goal scorers.
Torres is a goal scorer, Voronin just doesn't look like he can do it and Kuyt is a really hard worker, but he's not a goal scorer.

All I'm saying is, the 3 have goal scorers.

What have Kalou, Sheva, Adebayor, Eduardo or Tevez (not so much) done to be regarded as goal scorers? I would hazard a guess that both Crouch and Kuyt scored more league goals than all of those (exception of Eduardo who's proven nothing over here) last season. With the exception of Utd our front-line is more than a match for the rest (particuarly Chelsea) and like i said to Dan i would take a punt that our forwards (excluding wingers) score more than yours this season.

As for Voronin, i doubted his role when he came but he's done more in the opening weeks of the season to be regarded a finisher/goalscorer than Kalou (you must have been clutching at straws to include him), Sheva and Eduardo.

 

[NokkonWud]

......

Whilst I see your points in most areas, I can't help but laugh at your midfield suggestion that your 3 CM's are better than ours?

Bar Gerrard over Scholes (now, though when Scholes was Gerrards age would be a different matter), I can't help but think you're having a laugh. Mascherano over Hargreaves? You must be mad. Carrick (on form) is outstanding and was our strongest player in the middle of the part for the majority of last season (after January) where as Alonso hasn't really turned up for 2 seasons now.
Scholes statistics speak for themselves.

Whilst I would love Gerrard and I think he's a fantastic player, I honestly can't remember the last time I saw him turn up against Arsenal, Man Utd or Chelsea.

However I do see your points, but I'm giving you mine as an honest, none Liverpool supporting fan of football. When everything comes together you play brilliant football that I enjoy watching, it's when you don't play well, you can't see where it's gonna come from.
Man Utd scraped through 5 poor performances at 1-0 but all the goals came from different places. That's what I mean. With Man Utd playing badly, someone like Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez, Scholes, Giggs or Vidic can still pull you that goal from somewhere.

This is what I don't see from Liverpool.

 

[NokkonWud]

What have Kalou, Sheva, Adebayor, Eduardo or Tevez (not so much) done to be regarded as goal scorers? I would hazard a guess that both Crouch and Kuyt scored more league goals than all of those (exception of Eduardo who's proven nothing over here) last season. With the exception of Utd our front-line is more than a match for the rest (particuarly Chelsea) and like i said to Dan i would take a punt that our forwards (excluding wingers) score more than yours this season.

Tevez was one of the best players in the league last season, I believe I read somewhere that in every goal scored in the last 10 games for West Hams season last year he was heavily involved in it some way. His record is also pretty good.
Sheva is an ex-European player of the year with a fantastic record in europe.
Kalou is a hot prospect with lightning heels who always looks to be causing bother (he's very like Babel but more along in terms of progress)
Adebayor is strong and skillful, much like Drogba. Remember everyone knocking Drogba before last season? I do.
Eduardo's goal scoring record is scarily good, but needs a chance at Arsenal. But as I've said, his record speaks for itself.

That's what I mean by naming those players.

As for Voronin, i doubted his role when he came but he's done more in the opening weeks of the season to be regarded a finisher/goalscorer than Kalou (you must have been clutching at straws to include him), Sheva and Eduardo.

I'm not actually that big a fan of Kalou, but his work on the ball if very good and he's a definite threat. I could have named Pizarro of course if it would make you happier .

However, I am a fan of Voronins power, I suppose I'll have to give him time before I reserve judgement.

 

[BaZ87]

Whilst I see your points in most areas, I can't help but laugh at your midfield suggestion that your 3 CM's are better than ours?

Bar Gerrard over Scholes (now, though when Scholes was Gerrards age would be a different matter), I can't help but think you're having a laugh. Mascherano over Hargreaves? You must be mad. Carrick (on form) is outstanding and was our strongest player in the middle of the part for the majority of last season (after January) where as Alonso hasn't really turned up for 2 seasons now.
Scholes statistics speak for themselves.

Whilst I would love Gerrard and I think he's a fantastic player, I honestly can't remember the last time I saw him turn up against Arsenal, Man Utd or Chelsea.

However I do see your points, but I'm giving you mine as an honest, none Liverpool supporting fan of football. When everything comes together you play brilliant football that I enjoy watching, it's when you don't play well, you can't see where it's gonna come from.
Man Utd scraped through 5 poor performances at 1-0 but all the goals came from different places. That's what I mean. With Man Utd playing badly, someone like Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez, Scholes, Giggs or Vidic can still pull you that goal from somewhere.

This is what I don't see from Liverpool.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on the midfield front because for me Carrick isn't half the player Alonso (alongside Fabregas as the best passer in the league, proberly with a broader range of passes too) is nor is Hargreaves to Mascherano (the nearest to a young Makelele ive seen and getting better).

Gerrard didn't put in any great performances vs the big 4 last year (don't think either Rooney or Ronaldo did either) i'll admit (though he wasn't bad either) but he was outstanding vs Chelsea this season and has constantly produced when it matters in the biggest games we've played in. Like i said no other player has scored in ever major cup final and i doubt there would be many midfielders that have scored vs all there major rivals too (Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal and Everton).

I agree on the goals front though, like you say you've got Ronaldo, Rooney, Giggs and Scholes (Tevez has proven nothing and Vidic is just a hope, we have Hyypia) where as we've only really got Gerrard and Torres that can get a goal from nothing or do something special. Like ive said above i still think we're 1 or 2 top attacking players away from winning the league (i hope im wrong), Babel hopefully will prove to be the other 1.

 

[BaZ87]

Tevez was one of the best players in the league last season, I believe I read somewhere that in every goal scored in the last 10 games for West Hams season last year he was heavily involved in it some way. His record is also pretty good.
Sheva is an ex-European player of the year with a fantastic record in europe.
Kalou is a hot prospect with lightning heels who always looks to be causing bother (he's very like Babel but more along in terms of progress)
Adebayor is strong and skillful, much like Drogba. Remember everyone knocking Drogba before last season? I do.
Eduardo's goal scoring record is scarily good, but needs a chance at Arsenal. But as I've said, his record speaks for itself.

That's what I mean by naming those players.


I'm not actually that big a fan of Kalou, but his work on the ball if very good and he's a definite threat. I could have named Pizarro of course if it would make you happier .

However, I am a fan of Voronins power, I suppose I'll have to give him time before I reserve judgement.

Tevez was one of the best players for the last 10 games, he scored 7 goals last year.

Sheva is finished, he's lost his pace and doesn't fancy the fight, got 5 goals last year.

Kalou doesn't look anything more than a prospect (not a fan of his either, in fact ive been really unimpressed as he came with quite a reputation), he certainly isn't an out and out forward, 8 goals in all competitions last year.

Adebayor, i have to admit i like him, like you say he's got a bit of Drogba about him but he's amazingly hit and miss and only managed 8 goals in the league last year (12 total).

Eduardo, yes he's got a great record but so did Morientes and Sheva and they got there record in top leagues and with big clubs. He's proven nothing over here and untill he does his record counts for nothing.

As i said both Kuyt and Crouch scored more goals (all together and in the league alone) than Tevez, Sheva, Adebayor and Kalou so to count them as goal threats then you should count Kuyt and Crouch too.

 

[weringo]

Nokkon how can you say the likes of Adebayor, Kalou and Shevchenko are any better goalscorers than the bunch of strikers we have?

Adebayor and Kalou are VERY wasteful in front of goal, Adebayor may be hitting some form recently but throughout the season he's the type of player who needs 4 or 5 chances to hit the back of the net, Kalou is exactly the same.

Shevchenko was easily in the top 3 strikers in the world for a long period of his career but now he's a shadow of his former self.

As for United, Saha is the only one of your strikeforce who I'd regard as a natural goalscorer but seems to be injured for more games than he's available for. Rooney and Tevez are both capable of 10-15 league goals a season if they play enough games but neither are fantastic finishers.

And as for Eduardo, I've seen very little of him tbf but 30 goals last year in a league of poor quality is never guaranteed to translate to something similar this season in the prem.

 

[NokkonWud]

As for United, Saha is the only one of your strikeforce who I'd regard as a natural goalscorer but seems to be injured for more games than he's available for. Rooney and Tevez are both capable of 10-15 league goals a season if they play enough games but neither are fantastic finishers.

Saha is the natural finisher.

Tevez scored around 10 last season playing 1/2 the games in an apalling team. Rooney scored 23 and had a 'bad season'.

I agree on the goals front though, like you say you've got Ronaldo, Rooney, Giggs and Scholes (Tevez has proven nothing and Vidic is just a hope, we have Hyypia) where as we've only really got Gerrard and Torres that can get a goal from nothing or do something special. Like ive said above i still think we're 1 or 2 top attacking players away from winning the league (i hope im wrong), Babel hopefully will prove to be the other 1.

You mention Tevez has proven nothing. He's won 3 MOTM awards in a row and was West Hams player of the year despite playing around 1/2 their games.
As for Vidic just being a hope... are you crazy?! He's without a doubt the most dominant player in the air in the entire Premiership. He frightens defenders going forwards and he frightens forwards going back.
I am under no illusions when I say I wouldn't trade him for any CB in the world right now.

 

[wedgie]

I'll leave the strikers argument, but Nokkon is 100% right on Vidic. Simply awesome defender.

Can't give much higher praise than it's usually Terry that is given the job of marking him on corners when we play Chelsea (and I've seen Vidic out-muscle Terry as if he wasn't there on at least two of the times we've played them

Have a look at his goal that won us the game against Everton a few weeks back, he had absolutely no right to win that header.

 

[Slogan]

I don't think Babel was signed simply because we needed a winger, the way Rafa has spoke about Babel he was a player that he had is eye on for a while and felt he had the raw materials to become a top player, whether that was as a striker (which he has played for us since joining) or winger and took the chance to sign him before somebody else did (he actually mentioned the U-21 Euro's being the reason why we moved for him this year just in case somebody else did).

Regarding the not damaging the boy part, i think thats exactly the reason he's played a bit part towards the start of the season, he's undoubtedly got amazing natural ability but Rafa's trying to bring him into the side slowly so that he can adapt to the game without having the pressure put straight on him.

I wouldn't worry too much about his mentality, i would imagine many 20 year olds would be affected by fans getting on there back but im sure he'll learn to get on with it with age and i also doubt he'll get the abuse he got in Holland over here.

I don't think I've made my stance clear. What I am saying is that I felt we were going to sign a winger and when Babel arrived I was surprised, because, well, he isn't a winger at all.

Babel was signed for the reasons you stated (Rafa admired him and saw it as a good chance to sign him up) - not because we wanted a winger. However, we needed and still do need proper wingers. Kewell whilst having the natural ability doesn't have the mentality or fitness to make good use of that, Pennant is 'decent' but not amazing as I touched on and Leto looks very poor for what little I have seen so far - totally lacking in anything significantly good and at the moment a poor replacement for Gonzalez, who you will remember as not being particularly amazing in his time here either. Injuries didn't help of course.

As for him getting the abuse here that he did there, I don't quite agree. In a league where every game is vitally important in an important league, the abuse is constant. In the Dutch league, it sort of revolves around a set number of clubs and concentrated abuse on games here and there throughout the season - but no more consistent than the the fixture list would make it. You can guarantee the hatred of the Man United - Liverpool and Liverpool - Everton games will be a totally new experience to him and how he handles that on a mental level will be interesting to see.

I am concerned but not as far as worried in regards to his development. As I said, he will get the best of the best in regards to maturing himself (both physically and mentally) but playing bit-part roles and not always showing what you are capable of can be as good as it is bad for a player. It just depends what side of the fence you look at it from - little pressure coming on in games against tired legs or not being good enough to start games and showing little when you do come on. He hasn't really played as a striker in any of our games and if it has been, it has been very limited indeed.

Nokkon, I don't particularly agree with your midfield assessment in regards to the comparison between United and Liverpool. Hargreaves and Mascherano are closer in quality than your comparison would suggest and the former has only recently started to prove himself as a properly capable midfielder - at the very least International level where he went from villan to hero and now at Manchester United. His time with Bayern was often over-looked as the German league is about as attractive and interesting as a testicle sandwich. (not very)

Carrick is a very capable midfielder and has impressed me personally with his performances this year. He's a good user of the ball and has controlled games for United this season. However, Alonso does the exact same unnoticied job for us and it is no coincedence that his absence has resulted in us being a stuttering wreck as of late. He holds the ball, dictates the play and plays a vital role in relating the defence to the midfield. When he doesn't play, all of our defenders think it is more than acceptable to lump it up the pitch for 90 minutes and hope for the best - whether Crouch is playing or not.

Just to add on Vidic - can't see where you're coming from Baz. He has been as important for United as Agger has been for us and that is the best compliment I can give to him. He's looked powerful, dominating (in both penalty areas) and looks to have been a fine and important signing for United. You only had to look at them last season when he went missing through injury to see how much of a key role he played. 'A hope' is definitely miscalculated.

 

[FrankJH]

Is this a Liverpool or Man Utd thread?

In all seriousness - some here are seemingly saying the next three games for Liverpool are really important , incl one CL game (Im not disagreeing with that per se ) but surely Liverpool have to win three CL games in a row (and preferably not lose the 4th) to really gaurentee qualification (and even then its possible you may need other results to go your way also)

Yes you are right to focus on the next three - but Rafa needs to get it dead right soon, otherwise you wont have a hope in two of the major competitions (CL and EPL)

As for Vidic, he is without doubt one of the best Centre Half's in the world both defensively and in the air for corners (hopefully the concussion isnt too serious)

Quite funny how we are discussing centre half's after the commical errors (forced or not) Liverpool made against Spurs........

 

[BFCTom]

You can't knock Adebayor this season he's been on fire. The way he brings down the ball from high is awesome and his finishing has been good too this year.

 

[JohnnyG]

.....

Hi Dave

 

[Ripper]

Another point I would make about Liverpool is the fact that every season they always have 2 or 3 players they try to bed in the first team, yet fans expect miracles. Every season they have a new winger in the starting 11, a new striker, and sometimes a new fullback. How they expect to get any consistency is beyond me.

 

[Spacedman]

I think this year we've improved on that aspect ripper, a new forward was always on the cards and babel from what ive seen is an exciting prospect for the future. With arbaloa at left back and riise/aurellio/kewell (where is he btw?) the additions were made last season. Havnt seen the pool much on tv recently mind so i am willing to be corrected

Torres should be play as much as possible, veronin is not anywhere near as regular. Torres and Kuyt is my preffered partnership which means 2 new players in the starting 11 if babel starts.

 

[BaZ87]

You mention Tevez has proven nothing. He's won 3 MOTM awards in a row and was West Hams player of the year despite playing around 1/2 their games.
As for Vidic just being a hope... are you crazy?! He's without a doubt the most dominant player in the air in the entire Premiership. He frightens defenders going forwards and he frightens forwards going back.
I am under no illusions when I say I wouldn't trade him for any CB in the world right now.

Tevez scored 7 goals in 29 matches for West Ham (iirc all starts too) and has managed 2 goals in 10 games (2 as sub) for you this season. Good player but he's not the major goal threat you have claimed and if you look at his entire career his goals record is pretty poor for the player he's made out to be.

As for Vidic, you surely can't regard a CB as a player that you'll expect to score every game. Undoubtedly he's a threat from set-plays and will chip in with the odd goal but he's not a player you're going to rely on for goals.

Back to my original point, you can't call Kalou, Tevez etc goal threats and then say Kuyt or Crouch are not when both Kuyt and Crouch comfortably out scored all the players on your list.

I don't think I've made my stance clear. What I am saying is that I felt we were going to sign a winger and when Babel arrived I was surprised, because, well, he isn't a winger at all.

Babel was signed for the reasons you stated (Rafa admired him and saw it as a good chance to sign him up) - not because we wanted a winger. However, we needed and still do need proper wingers. Kewell whilst having the natural ability doesn't have the mentality or fitness to make good use of that, Pennant is 'decent' but not amazing as I touched on and Leto looks very poor for what little I have seen so far - totally lacking in anything significantly good and at the moment a poor replacement for Gonzalez, who you will remember as not being particularly amazing in his time here either. Injuries didn't help of course.

As for him getting the abuse here that he did there, I don't quite agree. In a league where every game is vitally important in an important league, the abuse is constant. In the Dutch league, it sort of revolves around a set number of clubs and concentrated abuse on games here and there throughout the season - but no more consistent than the the fixture list would make it. You can guarantee the hatred of the Man United - Liverpool and Liverpool - Everton games will be a totally new experience to him and how he handles that on a mental level will be interesting to see.

I am concerned but not as far as worried in regards to his development. As I said, he will get the best of the best in regards to maturing himself (both physically and mentally) but playing bit-part roles and not always showing what you are capable of can be as good as it is bad for a player. It just depends what side of the fence you look at it from - little pressure coming on in games against tired legs or not being good enough to start games and showing little when you do come on. He hasn't really played as a striker in any of our games and if it has been, it has been very limited indeed.

I agree about us needing a winger at the start of the season and still needing one, its thought that we went for Malouda but refused the £13m asking price and similarly the £14m for Mancini. Whether Rafa felt he could get away with Babel, Benayoun and Riise down the left until January i don't know.

When he was talking about the crowd abuse i think he was referring to his own fans at Ajax, which is something thats very unlikely to happen with us. Also regarding the oppo fans, as long as Steve G's playing then he shouldn't have much to worry about as the Mancs and Toffees save all there love for him

Regarding his bit-part start, like you say its a tricky one; he may start thinking he's not good enough etc to get in the side but on the whole i think it will be good for him to be given time to adapt without the expectation that Torres has on him. You have to remember that its only been in the last 10 years that players have started playing reguarly at 17, 18 and 19 (of course there was the odd exception) and something my Dad has constantly being saying to me that with the exception of Dalglish and Souness all other Liverpool signings during that period had to wait and be content with the odd chance before establishing themselves. This whole situation is very similar to that of Agger's where he played the odd game for 6 months or so before finally establishing himself in the side and he's not done a bad job.

Another point I would make about Liverpool is the fact that every season they always have 2 or 3 players they try to bed in the first team, yet fans expect miracles. Every season they have a new winger in the starting 11, a new striker, and sometimes a new fullback. How they expect to get any consistency is beyond me.

I don't think thats specific to Liverpool, i think a lot of your fellow Mancs expected instant results from Nani and Anderson too.

 

[Ripper]

I don't think thats specific to Liverpool, i think a lot of your fellow Mancs expected instant results from Nani and Anderson too.

Nah no chance. We were excited to see them arrive but anyone you ask will say that they're players for the future, and anything they provide us with now is a bonus. We have our first choice players already sorted, and they're (Nanderson) there to provide something different when needed, or to give older players a rest. They won't be starting 11 players for at least a season yet.

 

[BaZ87]

Nah no chance. We were excited to see them arrive but anyone you ask will say that they're players for the future, and anything they provide us with now is a bonus. We have our first choice players already sorted, and they're (Nanderson) there to provide something different when needed, or to give older players a rest. They won't be starting 11 players for at least a season yet.

I can recall many people on here (let alone a few of my Manc mates) who said Utd would be unstoppable with Nani, Anderson, Rooney and Ronaldo in there side.

Maybe not said by the likes of yourself, Loki etc but your part-time fans thought so.

As for Liverpool specifically i think the only player that had a real expectation to perform straight away was Torres (mainly due to his price tag, even though Hargreaves cost as much) and Babel has proberly been fortunate that Torres arrived at the same time and his arrival went pretty much unnoticed.

Like i said regarding yourselves with Nani and Anderson, i don't think you'd find many of the more serious Liverpool fans expected Babel just to walk into the side a be a superstar.

 

[red11]

Dave \o/

w00t

I hope you have Loki and Gooner following !

Hi Dave

Greetings lads. I like your new sig JG, I always knew you were special.

Regarding Loki and Gooner, it's up to them.

edit: Nevermind.



Baz - I don't know many Man Utd fans who expected Nani and Anderson to slot straight into the squad and play a big role this season. If one transfer was more fitting for that, it was Hargreaves as he is older, more experienced, CL experience, International experience, speaks English and plays a role very suited to the English game.

edit: Nokkonwud is an Underboss! Congratulations dude.

 

[BaZ87]

Baz - I don't know many Man Utd fans who expected Nani and Anderson to slot straight into the squad and play a big role this season. If one transfer was more fitting for that, it was Hargreaves as he is older, more experienced, CL experience, International experience, speaks English and plays a role very suited to the English game.

Firstly, Welcome back (again)

If only the original transfer thread didn't vanish, as you know i would have gone a fetched a few quotes. Like i said to Ripper, all the part-time Mancs were full of it in the summer, constantly sending in emails to SSN saying Utd were unstoppable etc.