Womans Sentence Doubled for being Gang Raped
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Where have I said she was innocent? Her "crime" is spending some time with a man that wasn't a relative. I frankly couldn't give a stuff if that is a crime in Saudi Arabia, I still think it is wrong that both the law exists and that the punishment for it is barbaric.
What was being said was that it was barbaric, which then moved on to why do they do it and why don't they stop it. Lysander and I then went on to argue that it was based on our differing cultural lenses and that it wasn't right for us to just call the country backwards. I've never said it's not ok to opine that it's barbaric
no he's essentially saying that while he acknowledges the fact that the woman knowingly broke the law, that the law itself was oppressive and inherently unfair designed as a form of repressing women and that she was morally entitled without regards to any laws in any countries but based purely on ethical reasoning to be in the car with a non blood relative family member. He might also be getting at the fact that it shows the primary concerns of a society when you compare sentences being handed out whether they are more concerned about the gang rape or the fact that a woman decided she should be allowed a freedom of choice as to who she travelled with.
Caporegime
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no the scum in that case were the 14 men who raped her, who i assume didn't hang around and stand up and tell the police they did it. the 7-8 who were caught were found, tried and faced the death penalty, they are doing pretty hard time in a country where no one in jail in the uk would prefer to be.
she didn't have to be in that car, she made a concious decision to be in that car, she broke the law. how is that different from people here getting in trouble for other laws most of us agree are wrong. there was a time, not so long ago when we had equally horrific law's and treatment/punishment of people. but you're completely ignoring that. you assume because our society advanced to the point we got to everyone else in the world was equally capable of doing exactly the same thing at exactly the same time. this is where people aren't thinking outside that box. our ancestors drowned women for not acting normal, as witches, because our religion told them too. but thats nothing to think about. we started wars and killed millions in the name of our religion, but thats ok, their religion says women shouldn't hang out with me who aren't relatives. if she believes in that religion who are you to tell her she shouldn't and she's wrong.
people are completely unwilling to see that different societys are at different stages of essentially the same pattern of beliefs. our society did things very similar to theres now, just a while ago,not that long of a while ago.
Wow, you really don't get it, do you. This is exactly why the West annoys some other cultures so much. Because the we think our moral fibre is superior and we go over to other countries and impose it. It's ridiculous! Good God, September 11th was a reaction!! Right and wrong are objective. You can't force other people to see your point of view.
What a well thought out and presented arguement
I've spoken enough times in this thread already for my viewpoint to be clear. I'm just going to end up repeating myself.
Caporegime
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she got lashes at first and while that seems bad, that was it, all the men were facing the death penalty, death penalty worse than lashes? again, i would say yes. we have this assumption they don't deal with the men in these situations at all. those guys are most likely to be in a horrific jail being beaten up for the next 20 years. they did not get off with a light sentence.
I agree 100% you should bring back corporal punishment.
A) it would save a ton of taxpayers money (some of the birch is a lot cheaper than 3 months at her majesty's service.)
B) If the person was found innocent even after the punishment what would be the reparation? (much lower I assume than that afforded to people who lost their freedom for 3 months.)
It would free up prisons for the more serious offences.
People aren't scared of prison anymore so it's not a deterrant. However fewer people are not afraid of a painful beating.
I would argue it is ok to view a society who sentences a woman to 200 lashes and 6 months in jail for sitting in a non related mans care as backward. Because our society has deemed repression of women as wrong and moved on, for me to hold any other view would be a backwards move from where our society is now.
Yet we try to police the middle east as if we do have the right to change things..
isn't that essentially saying that the culture is backwards though? we did it in the past but we got enlightened and it's ok because eventually they'll get enlightened to they're just a bit behind us at the moment. rather than saying we branched off down one path and they've branched off down another.
with regards to the other point you've just quoted i was basing that on being sure i read somewhere in this thread that the standard punishment for rape is death but they've had it downgraded to 20 years imprisonment.
*I do agree with corporal punishment by the way and for stricter punishments for offenders it's something i wouldn't mind seeing reintroduced into our culture at all. in fact i'd say our culture is flawed in how we currently treat offenders/victims of crime so it's not like i'm saying that our society has evolved into some kind of flawless moral compass.
still i suppose we could share culturally, we'll beat some scallywags with a stick and they can acknowledge that females should be treated equally to males and given every right and freedom that males in their society are given.
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Caporegime
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frankly religion, imo was brought in by someone so stupendously brilliant back whenever he thought it up, as a way to impose fear and law and order, morality on people without much of any of that. people weren't scared, there wasn't a reason to not kill thy neighbour and take his woman because, you die you die, you don't care. the idea that we are responsible for our actions in this life leads people to not want to do something so bad they can't live on in happyness after they die. the guy who thought it up, because thats exactly what i think he did, was a freaking genius, and it worked. although it obviously ended up being so intense the following that hate grew between different versions and wars fought over whose right. but it still allowed a single group/society to live in much more peace/order than before.
the problem is, we've had our scientific/technological spurt, so many more people don't believe in god, weren't taught it, we're now hitting 2/3/4th generations of people who don't believe a word of it, and we're starting to see large numbers of people simply walk around without any fear of doing exactly what they want. because our police force is in such a sorry state, we're so over PC and we let so many people off with pathetic sentences the last fear of doing wrong is simply not there.
At some point if we don't get the police force massively beefed up(can't remember the last time i saw a policeman walking around anywhere except central london), and have a lawful system that punishes those who deserve it, this will only get worse and worse. At which point we'll all be screaming for a country that will beat the crap out of people who go around breaking the law.
the problem is, we've had our scientific/technological spurt, so many more people don't believe in god, weren't taught it, we're now hitting 2/3/4th generations of people who don't believe a word of it, and we're starting to see large numbers of people simply walk around without any fear of doing exactly what they want. because our police force is in such a sorry state, we're so over PC and we let so many people off with pathetic sentences the last fear of doing wrong is simply not there.
At some point if we don't get the police force massively beefed up(can't remember the last time i saw a policeman walking around anywhere except central london), and have a lawful system that punishes those who deserve it, this will only get worse and worse. At which point we'll all be screaming for a country that will beat the crap out of people who go around breaking the law.
Not really, it's quite heavily linked. Saying something is wrong in the Middle East and then going over there to change it both stem from a belief that your/our morals are superior. Going over there to change it is purely an extension of that belief.
The phrases "I think it is wrong" and "it is wrong" have very different connotations.
Soldato
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[Cas];10498635 said:
You evidently missed my implication altogether.
Caporegime
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this is a few of our points, its backwards for US, because we've moved on, they are still there. they aren't horrible people who decided it was awful, then went back, they are just at a different stage of their society than we are in ours.
to critise other cultures for doing exactly what we did is hypocracy of the higest degree. but this is my point, in 200 years they'll have had their Rosa parks moments, and their civil libertys movements, and their sexual equality laws. you can't look down on other people because our country went through an incredibly lucky period of time.
we still aren't perfect, we use the threat of simply wiping billions of koreans, indians, persians and russians of the face of the earth to stop wars, hardly civilised. we frequently associate ourselves with countries that commit attrocities, we sell weapons to countries that oppress their people. in world war 2 we were directly involved with the most horrific incident in world history. as horrific as genocide is, wiping out two populated cities in seconds is pretty god damned bad in and of itself.
war, and killing has been a fairly damn big reason for our faster developement than countries that weren't involved in our world wars. It took war to speed our developement ahead of these people, then complain how barbaric they are.
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Fixed.
Soldato
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