F1 2007/2008 Winter Testing and Rumours

[Vertigo]

Why do you think so?

The only reason you would hold that opinion is that you are misinformed.

Well unless you care to "inform" us some more, he's entitled to his opinion.

Frankly, I tend to agree with him. Whilst I await the details on the 7th with interest, in the meantime the Renault case bears a striking resemblance to the McLaren one, from what's been reported in the media so far.

 

[Slam62]

ok - a team has another teams iip and is fined 100m

2 teams run with fuel outside the regs - nothing

another team has another teams ip and is fined 0m

oh yes a team runs with a deliberately illegal moveable aerodynamic device fine 0m

it all makes so much sense

 

[lordedmond]

it mainly depends on who is the perent company FIAt



those initials ring a bell somewhere

 

[danielj315]

ok - a team has another teams iip and is fined 100m

2 teams run with fuel outside the regs - nothing

another team has another teams ip and is fined 0m

oh yes a team runs with a deliberately illegal moveable aerodynamic device fine 0m

it all makes so much sense

to be fair didnt the mclaren case involve a flow of information that was actively used to help set up/improve car?

 

[dannyjo22]

Renault found guilty but not penalised

Good to see the FIA still have some sense in them. The whole affair has been blown up out of proportion, and unlike what the majority of armchair experts state as fact, our case is nothing like that of Mclaren.

Yes I suppose it depends on the full facts, plenty of what i've read seems to think renault were actually deeper in the poo than Mclaren. That more people knew of this than at mclaren.

I dont understand why they didnt prove macca benefitted yet they got penalised yet renault get nothing. Yet this is the same as the first macca decision. Guilty but no penalty.

It's not finished yet.

They are guilty, the verdict is guilty. They have cheated.

The only possible reason for not fining them is renault will pull out.

So why the hell do we have to wait to hear why they didnt penalise them after finding them guilty? Enough time to cook up a decent story.

Yet again F1 becomes a panto.

 

[SIAT]

Why do you think so?

The only reason you would hold that opinion is that you are misinformed.

So you were in the FIA hearing then were you?

Even the FIA have said they are guilty.

Renault had Mclaren info, the have admitted to discussing it, how does this differ from what Mclaren were fined for exactly?

I'm sure Renault's punishment had absolutely nothing to do with their boss being a big mate of Bernie's would it now.... Or Mosley absolutely hating Ron Dennis...

 

[Vertigo]

to be fair didnt the mclaren case involve a flow of information that was actively used to help set up/improve car?

Absolutely not! It was never, ever proven that any of the Ferrari data they had even influenced the design of the car. They were indicted solely on possesion of the data alone, a crime of which Renault seemed, judging by the press reports, to be equally guilty of. I'm awaiting the detail with interest as the FIA have already stated that Renault were found guilty of a breach under the very same clause as McLaren yet haven't been penalised - what a farce.

 

[SIAT]

Absolutely not! It was never, ever proven that any of the Ferrari data they had even influenced the design of the car. They were indicted solely on possesion of the data alone, a crime of which Renault seemed, judging by the press reports, to be equally guilty of. I'm awaiting the detail with interest as the FIA have already stated that Renault were found guilty of a breach under the very same clause as McLaren yet haven't been penalised - what a farce.

Exactly, the FIA have never ever stated that McLaren used the data to improve their car.

 

[sunama]

I think the difference here is that Ferrari were not involved. Had it been Ferrari who were reporting Renault, then the FIA (Ferrari International Assistance) would've come to their aid and hammered Renault.

This sort of industrial espionage (so to speak) has been going on for years. It was only punished this year to bring everyone into line and to assist Ferrari.

 

[Memphis]

to be fair didnt the mclaren case involve a flow of information that was actively used to help set up/improve car?

How anyone has managed to come to the conclusion that tyre pressures on a car with a COMPLETELY different design is significant information, I have no idea.

 

[Vertigo]

Basically Renault are as guilty as McLaren, the FIA have already stated that categorically.

The problem is that, if they hammer Renault, they'd leave F1 as they'd never swallow the fine and continue like McLaren. The FIA can't allow that to happen so they're going to conjure up some contorted reason why they shouldn't be punished.

 

[NicktheNorse]

Absolutely not! It was never, ever proven that any of the Ferrari data they had even influenced the design of the car. They were indicted solely on possesion of the data alone, a crime of which Renault seemed, judging by the press reports, to be equally guilty of. I'm awaiting the detail with interest as the FIA have already stated that Renault were found guilty of a breach under the very same clause as McLaren yet haven't been penalised - what a farce.

Mclaren were not penalized for simply having the information - they were simply found guilty of having it (ie, breaching section 151c). As you'll remember, Mclaren were not handed any penalty whatsoever the first time around. If you have trouble remembering this I'd recommend going back and reading the full transcripts of both hearings.

Mclaren claimed no one in the company whatsoever knew about the ferrari information, and that it hadn't gone into any work related to their current and/or future cars. The problem of course was that this was in fact not true - as it was later proven. The information was passed around (even though Ron had completely and utterly denied that this had happened in the initial hearing) and the FIA decided that they were not satisfied that the information (which had been obtained on an active, continual and clandestine basis) hadn't been used to develop the mclaren car and/or race strategy (which it had, as proven by communication between Alonso and DLR for one).

The difference in the Renault case was that Phil Mackareth brought these 18 drawings with him as a one-time case of stupidity (they were all his own by the way - he brought them with him due to sentimental value), and when a fellow designer noticed them curiosity got the best of him. This extended to a further 7 (non-design) people who, unlike Ron's boys, fully admitted to the FIA that they had laid eyes upon said drawings when all this came to light. It was in no way shared out amongst the design team and the information was not assimilated into any of Renault's work. Clearly the FIA was satisfied that this was the case - hence, no penalty.

So you were in the FIA hearing then were you?

Even the FIA have said they are guilty.

Renault had Mclaren info, the have admitted to discussing it, how does this differ from what Mclaren were fined for exactly?

I wasn't in the hearing but my boss was.

Yes, Renault was found guilty. As I've said, so were mclaren the first time around. Neither were penalized.

 

[sunama]

Precisely. McLaren were using a completely different car and even if Ferrari were to hand over the full set-up detail to McLaren, it just wouldnt work on a McLaren. Each car is different and the optimal set-up will be different for each team's vehicle.

Now if McLaren had access to Ferrari's wind tunnel experiments, then that could certainly save McLaren time and money and speed up development of their own vehicle, but from what I know, McLaren were not privvy to this info. McLaren designed the vehicle on their own.

What did help McLaren though, was when they knew what lap the Ferraris were going to pit in the Australian GP and their full strategy. It didnt help though as the Ferrari still won that race.

 

[NicktheNorse]

Yes I suppose it depends on the full facts, plenty of what i've read seems to think renault were actually deeper in the poo than Mclaren. That more people knew of this than at mclaren.

Number of people knowing is not the issue. What those people did with the information is the issue.

I dont understand why they didnt prove macca benefitted yet they got penalised yet renault get nothing. Yet this is the same as the first macca decision. Guilty but no penalty.

The FIA stated that given the evidence and the (contradictory) witness statements they were not satisfied that the information hadn't been used in developing mclaren's season. Clearly, the FIA decided today that Renault did not benefit from having access to those 18 drawings.

 

[SIAT]

I wasn't in the hearing but my boss was.

Yes, Renault was found guilty. As I've said, so were mclaren the first time around. Neither were penalized.

They weren't fined the first time round as at that time, it was considered to be the work of a rogue employee. Once info was found to be inside Mclaren (Much as Renault have done) then there was the fine.

Do you honestly believe that the Renault situation doesn't warrant a fine or any punishment? Or that Mclaren's fine was in no way related to the FIA's relationship with Mclaren.

How come the FIA still have not punished Toyota the only team proven to have used other teams info to build their car in a court of law? Not a kangaroo court.

 

[NicktheNorse]

They weren't fined the first time round as at that time, it was considered to be the work of a rogue employee. Once info was found to be inside Mclaren (Much as Renault have done) then there was the fine.

Please read the following:

Hearing #1:

It is the unanimous view of the World Council that Vodafone McLaren Mercedes were in possession of Ferrari secrets or Ferrari information, by virtue of Mr Coughlan’s possession thereof, irrespective of certain other elements. We therefore find Vodafone McLaren Mercedes in breach of Article 151c. However, the evidence of any use of this material in a manner calculated to interfere with the Formula 1 World Championship is insufficient for us to impose any penalty.

This is exactly what the transcript for the Renault hearing will read.

 

[SIAT]

This is exactly what the transcript for the Renault hearing will read.

The difference being one having the data at an employee's home. The other being on an f1 teams computers and discussed between employees. (I know later mclaren were found to have done the same, but if you want to compare the first verdicts).

"1.5 In response to the charge, McLaren made extensive written submissions in advance of the 26 July WMSC meeting and made detailed oral argument at the meeting itself. McLaren did not dispute that Coughlan had come into possession of Ferrari confidential information but argued, inter alia:

(i) that the Ferrari confidential information in question had not been circulated within McLaren;
(ii) that McLaren had neither used nor benefited from the receipt by Coughlan of the Ferrari confidential information; and
(iii) that the actions of Coughlan in receiving and dealing with the Ferrari confidential information were those of a “rogue employee” for which McLaren should not be held responsible."

 

[dannyjo22]

The FIA stated that given the evidence and the (contradictory) witness statements they were not satisfied that the information hadn't been used in developing mclaren's season. Clearly, the FIA decided today that Renault did not benefit from having access to those 18 drawings.

Not being satisfied does not mean it's true. Frankly I think this is the biggest load of bull I've heard in years of top class F1 bull. (The ruling not your comments)

I've always maintained Mclaren cheated even though there was little to prove they had other than holding information they shouldn't. Which is exactly the same as Renault.

Renault have cheated atleast as much as Mclaren have.

As for being satisfied that the designs where never assimilated into Renaults car, i've heard that the Fia haven't even inspected the Renault bit by bit as they did the macca to see if thats even true.

So is that wrong? How long have the Fia been poking around Enstone and how long did they take to pull the car to bits?

 

[Emlyn_Dewar]

Tell you what, thank Christ this year's almost over. F1 is the joke of 2007, I almost feel bad to be a fan.

Hopefully next year the generic media hype will have died down or people will be a little more clued up. I also hope that the teams can just get on with it and we don't have to hear how every team on the grid is a bunch of dirty cheating ********...

New car releases, Alonso v Hamilton (please both have good cars), Ralf Schumacher & Fisichella's retirements, close racing and a good show. That's what I am looking forward to...

 

[sunama]

New car releases, Alonso v Hamilton (please both have good cars), Ralf Schumacher & Fisichella's retirements, close racing and a good show. That's what I am looking forward to...

We had most of that this season though. This season was a great season. It wont be forgotten. There was competition on and off the track where teams were basically going to war with eachother. Hamilton and Alonso were also at eachothers throats. The intensity of this season hasnt been seen since the days of Prost/Senna/Mansell and also MS/Hill.

What we dont want is 2008 to turn into another generic season or a Ferrari white wash.