2008 Monaco GP - Race 6/18
- Thread starter rpstewart
- Start date
I actually like DC rather more since he left McLaren. He's a bit more realistic about his own talent now.
So true. But then this is true of any sportsperson who has retired from the sport or is dead.
Have people forgotten that in 1994, Senna got his dream move over to Williams, only to get hammered by MS in those first 3 races? Even if Senna had lived, after 3 races, MS was leading the WDC by 30pts to Senna's 0pts.
Senna was a great driver, but to put him on this mantle is unjustified. He was human and in his time, Prost and Mansell were winning as well. Prost of course, winning more than Senna. Where Senna excelled is in wet weather driving and in qualifying. The guy was unequivocally the best qualfier ever. It took MS a long time to take the 'most pole positions' away from Senna.
In my opinion, all sportsmen and women are improving. We see this most notably in athletics. We know this as times/distances are measured. Unfortunately, in other sports, such as motor racing, its difficult to make objective comparisons. All we can do is compare the sportsperson to his current peers who he is competing against at the time.
Right now, Hamilton, in only his 2nd year, is looking pretty special. I say this, because in my life, I have never seen a "true rookie" (excuding ex-Indy car world champions, such as Villeneuve), do what he is doing. Last year was a fantastic year, when you think he went up against Alonso.
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I firmly believe that he was a 'greater loss' to motorsport than Senna...Not wishing to slight Sennas' ability or achievements...I just think that Bellof could have been so much greater.
I was just about to post that. Arnoux always made his car seem twice as wide as it was but that move is an all-time great. Bellof driving home the fact that he would never take no as an answer...Which unfortunately proved his undoing.
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I actually like DC rather more since he left McLaren. He's a bit more realistic about his own talent now.
I remember people calling for me to be sussed for daring to suggest that 'Diamond' Dave Coulthard was anything less than a God....
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Yeah. Eau Rouge got him in the end, didn't it?
I think what people forget is that Senna used to stick in performances like that in some pretty average motors (obviously later in his Career at McLaren he had a cracking motor, which is what a lot of folks remember). For example famously in his first F1 visit to Monaco in a Toleman he finished second. Constructor wise that car finished 7th in the Championship, so that's like rocking up in a Torro-Rosso and finishing 2nd in your first ever visit to Monaco. He'd have probably won that race but they stopped it early for safety reasons, Senna was closing on Prost like the Frenchman was driving Miss Daisy.
That is why when James Allen starts comparing Senna to Lewis Hamilton I get a little annoyed. Not only has Lewis got one of the best cars on the Grid (possibly the best suited to Monaco), but he's also raced at Monaco in GP2 and so forth, and the lad made a mistake and lucked in with a safety car (Massa lost the best part of 17s over Kubica and 25 odd over Lewis). It was a good middle stint, but god damn he was lucky. Sutil and Webber put in the best performances of the day.
I've yet to see any drive from Hamilton that puts him in the Senna/Schumacher league of driver. He's firmly in the Hill/Villenuve/Piquet/Alonso league at present though, which is no bad place to be. Maybe he'll move up into the same category as the elite drivers in a few years, but for now he's not there. Shame ITV can't see past the fact he's British... even more of a shame that the likes of P-Diddy and other hangers on are around the F1 circuit... if the lad wasn't black they'd not be there, which IMO is a form of racism.
That is why when James Allen starts comparing Senna to Lewis Hamilton I get a little annoyed. Not only has Lewis got one of the best cars on the Grid (possibly the best suited to Monaco), but he's also raced at Monaco in GP2 and so forth, and the lad made a mistake and lucked in with a safety car (Massa lost the best part of 17s over Kubica and 25 odd over Lewis). It was a good middle stint, but god damn he was lucky. Sutil and Webber put in the best performances of the day.
I've yet to see any drive from Hamilton that puts him in the Senna/Schumacher league of driver. He's firmly in the Hill/Villenuve/Piquet/Alonso league at present though, which is no bad place to be. Maybe he'll move up into the same category as the elite drivers in a few years, but for now he's not there. Shame ITV can't see past the fact he's British... even more of a shame that the likes of P-Diddy and other hangers on are around the F1 circuit... if the lad wasn't black they'd not be there, which IMO is a form of racism.
Yup.
Not content with posting a 6:11 on the Nordschleife, he tried to overtake around the outside at Eau Rouge.
Rumour has it that there were plans to make him tow a caravan for the '86 season just to accomodate his massive balls.
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And Bellof was closing on Senna like the Brazilian was piloting a pedalo
Given a full race, I reckon it would have been Bellof, Senna, Prost.
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Good thing he was probably on his way to Ferrari for '86 then. He'd have needed the extra power with a caravan attached to his car.
I cant help but agree with that, though I would add Prost to that top step with Senna...
Hamilton has great potential, but at the moment I personally dont see him any different than D. Hill - both captured the British publics attention especially when F1 had been a mediocre spectacle. Perhaps my viewpoint will change, but Ive seen him drive since GP2 so it will probably be something that happens after his F1 career...
Has Hamilton ever had to drive a relative uncompetitive car in his motorsport career like Senna and Schumacher had to? Its easy to be a very good driver in a great car - just doesnt make you great...
ps3ud0
Yep. Of course, the steroids do help....
And superior nutrition and training regimes. Add this to the fact that these days you can be a full time sportsman and dedicate your life to training, where 40yrs ago, you would need to do your sport in your spare time, while doing a full time job to put food on your plate.
And dont forget that 30yrs ago, during the domination of East Germany, athletics was rife with steroids.
Its interesting that you should say that.
Senna didnt earn his (good) reputation by driving in a crap car. He earnt it when driving for McLaren - the class of the field - winning races, pole positions and fastest laps.
Similarly, MS won 1 race in a Bennetton that really shouldnt have beaten the Williams in 1992. In 1994, his Bennetton, which is when he really started to win, was just as good as the Williams.
To win races, you need the car underneath you - in the modern era, this has always been the case.
People seem to remember years gone by as a mythical era where the back markers were only 0.1s behind the leaders. This was certainly not the case. In 1992, Mansell qualified some 3 seconds ahead of the next non-Williams car. F1 has always had a disparity between the fastest and slowest cars.
I said this before and I will say it again, Senna was great in wet weather and in qualifying. Apart from that, I wouldnt say he was anything more special than Prost, MS or any other top driver. In comparison, Hamilton is already showing that he is good in qualifying and good in the wet - last year, he was very quick in the wet, aside from his pit lane excursion in China, of course.
Why laud a driver after his career is finished or is dead? Why cant we applaud his efforts while he is showing fantastic form and demonstrating that he is special?
Before MS retired, most people didnt rate him. Probably because he was still racing. Now that he has retired, suddenly people like yourself are placing him in the same category as Senna. Interesting that. Similarly, now that Hamilton is actually alive, racing and delivering the goods, you arent giving him the credit he is due. Perhaps you are waiting for him to retire/die?
So true. And what really takes the ****, is when I saw Nicole Schzigger (or whatever her name is). She is now hanging onto Hamilton's coat-tails.
Race drivers always get remembered by their good races. MS had plenty of terrible races and of course those that he attempted to win using malicious tactics.
Hamilton has already had an amazing number of good races in just 1 and a bit seasons. So yeah I'm pretty sure he is going to fair well in the historical records.
Hamilton has already had an amazing number of good races in just 1 and a bit seasons. So yeah I'm pretty sure he is going to fair well in the historical records.
That's funny, I seem to recall several moments at Lotus where he drove the car to results that it probably didn't deserve.
Lewis' win was not Senna-esq IMO. That's the point I'm aiming at. ****** ITV
I agree that ITv are idiots in constantly saying it during the race before it had even finished. But my reaction afterwards is that it turned out to be correct IMO. Being "Senna-esque" in my opinion is not so much about the driving but more about the pantomime and how that race will be remembered in 5, even 10, or 20, years from now.
Over time people forget the small details and just remember the key facts which are:
"LH crashed on lap 6 and needed to pit."
"Subsequently he drives the clappers off and by the mid race takes P1 and pulls out a 30 second lead"
"Meanwhile world champion Raikonnen is finding the wet weather conditions very very tricky and team mate Massa made critical strategic errors and lost a place due to a driving mistake."
Sounds good doesn't it?
Not that that in any way reduces the idiocy of constantly saying it on live TV. They've said it before like at Bahrain when LH didn't have a hope in hell's chance of scoring any points. To be honest whenever they say it it seems to jinx him too. For some reason at Monaco it didn't though.
Indeed, he wouldn't have got the McLaren drive if it wasn't for the likes of Estoril 85, Monaco 87 etc.
I'd hardly describe three poles followed by 2 crashes (neither or which have been conclusively said to be Senna's fault) a hammering. The FW16 was undeniably a dog out of the box but if Damon Hill could take a 23 point deficit down to the last race then it's fair to say that Senna would have a decent shout of doing similar.sunama said:
Define the 'Modern Era'...
(and no silly buggers making comments about the new Zetec-powered ERA replicas...I'm looking at you, JRS
)I'd say that the 'narrow' cars define the 'modern' era.
Then you have the post-Senna/Ratzenberger, pre-narrow era.
Then the post-turbo, pre-Senna/Ratzenberger era.
Then the turbo era...
And so on.
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