First hifi setup sounds "flat" and disappointing

[oli collett]

I've just played my Basement Jaxx CD (1411kb/s) immediately followed by a ripped version (just 128kb/s) and honestly I can't detect a lot of difference . It could just be me and my unrefined ears! I'm gonna hook up my DVD player in a bit and see if that changes things. Can someone tell me whether the CD player in a PC uses the sound card?

Don't be too surprised - not many people pass an A/B/X test at 128 kb/s (there have been loads of these done on hydrogenaudio) so I doubt it's your hearing. Modern codecs are a lot better than they used to be.

 

[Kua]

Here's a quick and dirty picture of my horrendous speaker positioning. Don't they look gorgeous though?

This picture also reminds me that I desperately need that new desk. Thoughts on one that would fill that space (assuming the bookcase isn't there) would also be appreciated .

 

[gt_junkie]

As others said earlier it's probably just the standard of audio output from the soundcard.

I've used X-Fi's and Asus Xonar's in the past and i must stress that the best 'by miles' was a direct digital output to an external DAC.

Outputting hifi grade audio through an analogue output from a pc (both soundcard and onboard as there's little difference) just doesn't cut it! Certainly not from a price/performance point of view anyway.

Either use a dedicated cd player or if you plan to run FLAC/mp3 go the external DAC route.

gt

 

[9designs2]

Here's a quick and dirty picture of my horrendous speaker positioning. Don't they look gorgeous though?

This picture also reminds me that I desperately need that new desk. Thoughts on one that would fill that space (assuming the bookcase isn't there) would also be appreciated .

Horrendous.... putting a speaker on a box on a chair will completely destroy it's ability and sound. Gets some proper stands.
A speaker cabinet is very sensitive to it's position and distance to boundaries and how well it is supported.
The cone has to move back and forth to move air to make the sound in the room, so if when the cone tries to move in one direction, the cabinet is not held secure and moves with it. (Think of your physics lessons, and Newton law, to each and every reaction there has to be and equal and opposite reaction). You will end up with less effective cone movement.
example,
You send a bass note to the speaker (Lower the bass, the more cone movement required), That should equal 4mm forwards, but the speaker is on your box/chair, and the force on the cone against the air pushed the cabinet back 2mm, that means half the movement was wasted in moving the cabinet and not the air in front of the cone. Result you heard only half the bass power. (a Simplistic example, in case some wants to calculate the true losses in the system )

This will happen all frequencies, the higher you go, the smaller the movement so the more secure the stand needs to be. Think if a note only required 0.5mm movement, good chance you won't hear it.

Give me the best system in the world, I can and make sound terrible in minutes, but making a simple basic system sound good, takes time, and attention to detail, with some experience and learning.

Work on you room layout, add stands, plus a DAC.

 

[Kua]

@ 9designs2. Fantastic post. I was really looking for some brutal honesty to motivate me to buy some stands .

I'm almost sold on the idea of the DAC. I was really hoping to play music from my PC: the vast majority of my music is in digital format and I much prefer the convenience of a media player. But I need to give both these things some research.

@gtjunkie: Am I right in thinking you can hook your headphones direct into the DAC? In fact I think you were implying that its better than a headphone amp... I know that some amps have headphone ports - how does that compare?

BTW there is definitely hiss from my speakers with the sound whacked all the way up.

Finally what do folk think of using a half-decent MP3 player with fairly high bitrate MP3s (I presume different MP3 players have different limits on bitrate) versus FLAC/high bitrate MP3s plus DAC. As mentioned earlier I can barely tell the difference between 160kbps and over 1000!

Also I'm happy to report that a mate of mine is going to bring round his Cambridge Azur CD player and hook it up. So that should let me know to what extent the sound card is a factor.

As a side note I feel as though I'm enjoying the speakers more now, though in hindsight I would have gone for ones with a less mellow sound. I also would have gone for an amp with a remote!

 

[gt_junkie]

@gtjunkie: Am I right in thinking you can hook your headphones direct into the DAC? In fact I think you were implying that its better than a headphone amp... I know that some amps have headphone ports - how does that compare?

BTW there is definitely hiss from my speakers with the sound whacked all the way up.!

The DAC i use is a Beresford 7150. It combines a DAC with a headphone amplifier (although it can be used to send audio direct to a full sized amplifier if needed).

They cost just over £100 (less 2nd hand) and provide surprisingly excellent performance.

Also, it's not that it's 'better' than a headphone amp (was ultimately very similar in performance to my own ProJect Head Box II headphone amp quite honestly) but as it was a DAC too it was able to work with a clean digital signal direct from the data on the PC.

Sound cards sending an analogue signal don't generally output a truly clean signal so with a bog standard headphone amp (like your main amp) you end up amplifying the poor quality sound.

I just feel you'd get the sound you were actually looking for that way. Should be closer (if not identical) to the sound your mates Azur CD player infact.

As a side note I feel as though I'm enjoying the speakers more now, though in hindsight I would have gone for ones with a less mellow sound. I also would have gone for an amp with a remote!

I think this is probably more the flattness you mention caused by the PC's soundcard. I own a set of Wharfedale Pacific Pi-40's (older design but similar drivers) and they are not remotely mellow... until i put mellow music on of course!

gt

 

[kidloco]

I nearly felt sorry for you before you posted that pic

As people have mentioned, get some stands and a decent source. At the very least putting the speakers on a sturdy base (not a carboard box). I think you will be pretty shocked just how much difference there is when you add your mates CDP. Ive seen many a good system crippled by the front end. If if play the same CD on my DVD player it makes my system sound flat and horrible, it just robs it of any musicality.

If your source is your PC just get a sound card that has digital out and hook it up to a DAC,.it wont cost the earth and will transaform your system with a set a stands.

http://www.beresford.me/main/main.html

 

[-Ad-]

Don't be too surprised - not many people pass an A/B/X test at 128 kb/s (there have been loads of these done on hydrogenaudio) so I doubt it's your hearing. Modern codecs are a lot better than they used to be.

Painfully obviously to me, and even 320kbps from the PS3 sounds dull compared to CD from my cd-player. But then again it's obvious if you have the right ears and equipment

Kua, as others have said sort out some stands or something other than cardboard boxes Once you do just use a little dob of blu tac under each of the 4 corners on each speaker to couple it to the stands/desk. Perfectly effective and cheap as... well blu tac

 

[200sx]

before spending any more money, check settings in the creative software. I experienced flat/lifeless sound until I disabled all the gimmicks in the software.

*******************************
The key to full/rich sound turned out to be disabling the CMSS 3d setting. Give it a try!
*******************************

Even if your speakers are firing at a wall, 2 inches away, they should still sound better than any mini system junk.

I'd put money on it being the CMSS 3d setting

 

[Kua]

I nearly felt sorry for you before you posted that pic

This made me larf! Its been slightly humiliating but I'm glad I posted that pic because the gasps of horror from the OCUK collective have motivated me to *really* do something about positioning.

The DAC i use is a Beresford 7150. It combines a DAC with a headphone amplifier (although it can be used to send audio direct to a full sized amplifier if needed).

They cost just over £100 (less 2nd hand) and provide surprisingly excellent performance.

This DAC sounds like an ideal solution. I get the impression its THE budget DAC to go for, but I'm going to look into other products, check some reviews and price things up this evening.

But just to absolutely confirm, it can use a USB port and therefore on my next PC build I could actually not bother with a sound card at all?

Kua, as others have said sort out some stands or something other than cardboard boxes Once you do just use a little dob of blu tac under each of the 4 corners on each speaker to couple it to the stands/desk. Perfectly effective and cheap as... well blu tac

To explain the cardboard box... ... that was just to get it at something close to ear level without sandwiching it in a bookshelf (though now I look I think it might fit ok in the top shelf). But still these are temporary measures. I'm going to have a look into stands this evening. One problem is the odd shape of the 9.1s, I think it can be difficult to fit them on a stand... They have some slight marks on the bottom whether the previous owner had put them on stands... I can't quite figure how that occured though...

Oh and I'm already using some blu tac, well white tac to be precise .

before spending any more money, check settings in the creative software. I experienced flat/lifeless sound until I disabled all the gimmicks in the software.

*******************************
The key to full/rich sound turned out to be disabling the CMSS 3d setting. Give it a try!
*******************************

Even if your speakers are firing at a wall, 2 inches away, they should still sound better than any mini system junk.

I'd put money on it being the CMSS 3d setting

It was already disabled. But thanks anyway .

 

[Ste]

Finally what do folk think of using a half-decent MP3 player with fairly high bitrate MP3s (I presume different MP3 players have different limits on bitrate) versus FLAC/high bitrate MP3s plus DAC. As mentioned earlier I can barely tell the difference between 160kbps and over 1000!

MP3 player? As in, an ipod or something? No no no

They still have internal DACs, which are pretty poor regardless of the quality of the player itself.

1) Get some stands and, if your cableing is really bad, some decent (about £2/m speaker cable and a £10-20 interconnect will do) cables
2) Get a Beresford DAC (Around £110 new, possibly 80-90 on ebay) and connect your PC to it
3) Get all your music ripped to FLAC and enjoy

MP3 will sound very good from the PC as long as you've got the DAC in place. It'll still sound poor from an ipod or similar thouhg.

 

[Ste]

As mentioned earlier I can barely tell the difference between 160kbps and over 1000!

This is because the internal DAC in the PC is a weaker link than the difference in bitrate, so to speak. You will notice the difference afterwards I assure you.

An alternative to all of this is a 2nd hand CD player - though research first - an older Arcam or something will only set you back £70ish on the bay and will have a very nice DAC already on board.

 

[Kua]

MP3 player? As in, an ipod or something? No no no

They still have internal DACs, which are pretty poor regardless of the quality of the player itself.

This makes sense. I don't suppose it can be hooked up to the Beresford DAC and bypass its internal DAC? I seem to think I'd seen that you could hook up a Freeview box to a DAC, which is neat.

1) ...if your cableing is really bad, some decent (about £2/m speaker cable and a £10-20 interconnect will do) cables

I feel as though the cabling is a minor issue. AFAIK its thick enough if your just using short lengths. That said I don't rule out an upgrade in the future - its just not a priority .

2) Get a Beresford DAC (Around £110 new, possibly 80-90 on ebay) and connect your PC to it

Seems like the Beresford is really highly regarded and the obvious choice. Which makes my life easier! Oh and if your patient you can get it cheaper and I do like looking for bargains .

 

[Kua]

This is because the internal DAC in the PC is a weaker link than the difference in bitrate, so to speak. You will notice the difference afterwards I assure you.

An alternative to all of this is a 2nd hand CD player - though research first - an older Arcam or something will only set you back £70ish on the bay and will have a very nice DAC already on board.

Hehe this raises another question. Can you hook up a PC to a CD player and use its internal DAC? I'm pretty sure (even if its possible) that would be a rubbish solution, but I just had to ask!

Oh and another question (I am an inquisitive soul), what makes a DAC not just a sound card in a box? That's not worded well, but I hope it makes sense.

 

[-Ad-]

WHITE TAC !!!!!!!... Jesus blu ctightens up the bass and tames the highs soo much more

The 9.1s have weird rounded cabinets. Any stand should be fine but might look a little off with some of the support shelf sticking out. Don't worry about marks on the bottm, even my lovely ATCs have marks from the white tac on the bottom.

Rememeber you won't be listening to the bottom of the speakers with your eyes

 

[Ste]

Hehe this raises another question. Can you hook up a PC to a CD player and use its internal DAC? I'm pretty sure (even if its possible) that would be a rubbish solution, but I just had to ask!

Oh and another question (I am an inquisitive soul), what makes a DAC not just a sound card in a box? That's not worded well, but I hope it makes sense.

RE: CD player, no, not generally, when you get into very high end stuff the transport (bit with the CD) and DAC are seperate units with independant power supplies, and you can often use the DAC for multiple inputs (i.e. not just the CDP). I believe this is why the latest round of 'cheap DACs' (Beresford and DAC magic) are doing so well - you can use them with any old CD (or even DVD) player, or PC, and they sound very very nice!

It's not a sound card in the box because all it does it convert a digital signal into an analogue signal (Digital-Analogue-Convertor). You still need an input, but any PC sound card with a digital output (coax or optical) will do the trick.

 

[kingy666]

Hi Kua, i am the one who mentioned Bernies cafe on your "spec me a hi-fi" post. You need to get them speakers set up properly before you do anything.
I also mentioned DAC's on your other thread as i have my p.c. connected to my cambridge audio 340 azur amp via a cambridge audio dacmagic 2 amp and sounds stunning (even though i only have a pair of £100 TDL floorstanding speakers). Its the DAC that makes all the difference and will be a good investment if you get one as you can plug everything in to it (mp3 players, cd players, dvd players, p.c...... e.t.c) and will add so much depth to anything you listen too.

Also my soundcard in my pc is an auzentech x-plosion and the good thing with the auzentech cards is that you can change the soundcards own DAC's (or OPAMPS) to better ones very cheaply which improves sound quality of the analogue outputs on the soundcard.

BUT FIRST MOVE THEM SPEAKERS!!!!!

 

[Ste]

Also, don't turn your amp off, or if you do let it warm back up before you try and listen to anything

 

[Kua]

Also, don't turn your amp off, or if you do let it warm back up before you try and listen to anything

Yep, I've already found this to make a noticeable difference.

 

[gt_junkie]

This DAC sounds like an ideal solution. I get the impression its THE budget DAC to go for, but I'm going to look into other products, check some reviews and price things up this evening.

But just to absolutely confirm, it can use a USB port and therefore on my next PC build I could actually not bother with a sound card at all?

As far as i understand the newest revision of the Beresford comes in two versions. One of which has the USB connection.

If your PC doesn't have a digital out then the USB version would be the one to get. Once you have this you should be good to go.

gt