**Summer Transfer Thread: News, Rumours and Speculation**

jakeke said:
I thought this whole point was about developing players from nothing into stars?

I think I'm missing the point if it isn't
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Sorry, apologies if ive got it wrong. I thought it stemed from talking about bringing players on in any respect (be it youth or signings that have improved) as opposed to Real buying 100% ready made superstars where there is little or no risk involved other than the sheer volume of cash.

Sorry if i misunderstood.
 
jakeke said:
I thought this whole point was about developing players from nothing into stars?

I think I'm missing the point if it isn't
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More that we (United) dont buy who are considered to be the best players in the world like Real Madrid
 
Tom84 said:
Where did I say that? I said we dont buy stars we make them and that is true.
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Ok, not a youth side, bad wording, but unless by making them stars you mean simply letting them play for one of the biggest clubs in the world, you're still wrong.

RvN came to United and started scoring straight away. Thus, he already had the talent, and you did nothing to "make" him. Ditto Carrick, who simply took some time to adapt to playing for you. Wayne Rooney already looked like becoming a fantastic player before he joined you. Carlos Tevez was already an international player and scoring against Premiership sides before you got him. Rio Ferdinand was already an established top-class player. Ditto Hargreaves, van der Sar and Berbatov. Evra, Vidic, and even Park were hardly plucked from obscurity either.

We must just disagree on what "making a star" entails. For me, its signing someone for a tiny fee, that barely anyone pays attention to at the time, and after a couple of seasons development, they almost seem to appear from nowhere into the first team. Not paying seven figure plus sums for already somewhat-established players, and simply bringing them to a better club than they were at before.

If you ignore your "golden generation", that's how you've assembled most of your first team.
 
Weebull said:
Ok, not a youth side, bad wording, but unless by making them stars you mean simply letting them play for one of the biggest clubs in the world, you're still wrong.
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Once again my point is that we dont sign players that are considered the best in the world whereas Real with their Galactico policy do hence why a player like Fabregas who is now a world renowned star is more likely to join Real Madrid than he is Barcelona who have a similar policy to United's

Weebull said:
RvN came to United and started scoring straight away. Thus, he already had the talent, and you did nothing to "make" him.
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If we did nothing to make him the player he was why weren't Madrid interested in him when he was at PSV? Why wait until he was an established world class talent at United? Wouldn't have anything to do with the fact he improved under Ferguson at United would it.... no of course not


Weebull said:
Evra, Vidic, and even Park were hardly plucked from obscurity either.
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Evra I might just about give you but Park and certianly Vidic where largely unknown by anyone when we signed them
 
Visionary said:
Park was playing in the CL for PSV, hardly unknown.

Vidic was the only real unknown out of those three.
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He might of been playing at PSV but if you'd of asked around here who is was or how good he was no one would have been able to answer it
 
Weebull said:
..... Ditto Hargreaves, van der Sar and Berbatov. Evra, Vidic, and even Park were hardly plucked from obscurity either.
.
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One thing I would like to point out is that any transfer to Utd for a senior player is always going to cost 7 figures - Evra wasnt THAT well known playing for Monaco, and Vidic was even less so playing for Spartek, Im sorry but the latter WAS obscure, virtually no-one knew who Vidic was before the transfer was mentioned and then completed

when average players like Johnson go for nearly 3 times Vidic's purchase price (and even without an inflated price it would have been double), I think that shows the relative obscurity of the player

Or comparing a bit more like to like - what about Arshavin's purchase from the same club in a similar winter window, his price is more a reflection imo of how the market in general is actually rating those players now where previously when Vidic was bought, it was a lot more rare
 
Nah, wasn't he pretty good in the '02 World Cup when it was held in SK as well? I'm sure I remember him being pretty good, not a star or anything but he was definitely not an out of the blue signing. Memory a bit hazy though, heh

Vidic definitely though, I'd never heard of him until Man Utd signed him :)
 
It is ridiculously hard to have a squad of players that you have either signed for nothing or brought through the youth system. The world isnt such a large place any more and any player that looks good from a young age will be closely watched by a number of clubs.

I believe that the mark of a good manager is buying players which increase in value over the time they are at your club. Just because a player has featured in PSV Eindhovens CL side doesnt mean he is anything more than average. The talent comes in spotting the players that you will help progress and improve.

To say that united havnt brought a lot of players on is crazy.
 
Tom84 said:
Once again my point is that we dont sign players that are considered the best in the world whereas Real with their Galactico policy do hence why a player like Fabregas who is now a world renowned star is more likely to join Real Madrid than he is Barcelona who have a similar policy to United's
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I'm not saying you're as bad as Real. Yes they buy ready-made top players from other big clubs, forgoing any attempt at nurturing their own talent or developing a scouting network.

If we did nothing to make him the player he was why weren't Madrid interested in him when he was at PSV? Why wait until he was an established world class talent at United? Wouldn't have anything to do with the fact he improved under Ferguson at United would it.... no of course not
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01-02: 23 league goals
02-03: 25
03-04: 20
04-05: Out injured for most of it
05-06: 21

Sorry, but nah, you did little to improve Ruud as a player - his ability was already there. All you did was give him a bigger stage to showcase it on. Why did Real now decide to take an interest? Because, as I said, they don't seem to bother with a scouting network of their own.

To people that seem to think I'm taking digs on Ferguson here, I'm really not. He has an excellent eye to spot a good player, but there's no way most of these names mentioned have been particularly nurtured. Most of them had the ability before they came to the club, and this is my point. To claim United made, say, RvN or Carrick a star does the likes of PSV and Tottenham a tremendous disservice, considering that's where they actually learnt the majority of their footballing skills from.

FrankJH said:
One thing I would like to point out is that any transfer to Utd for a senior player is always going to cost 7 figures
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Yeah, but that's exactly my point. You bought them as immediate senior players, much like you mentioned Arsenal did with Arshavin. Thus, I don't think it's fair to say you developed them particularly substantially.
 
"I’m not sure how many times I need to talk directly about my commitment to Arsenal as I continue to say the same thing over and over again, but it appears that every time I have spoken to the Spanish media recently, my words have bounced back to England, leaving question marks about my future.

"So, for anyone who is unclear or may have misunderstood what my position is, let me make myself absolutely crystal clear. I am wholeheartedly committed to Arsenal and my future lies with this great Club.

"It is a fact that we have not won a trophy for four years and yes, I am angry about that, but that anger stems from the deep deep desire I have to win things with Arsenal. I care about this Club and believe in this team. I am proud to captain this team and proud to wear the shirt. It really upsets me when people express my thoughts otherwise. The spirit in this squad is fantastic and we have the ability and mentality to compete on all fronts for silverware. Make no mistake, we are focussed and determined to show that we are capable of achieving great things together."
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<3 Cesc
 
JohnnyG said:
Probably, but then no-one had heard of Serbia:p
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you really can be a sarcastic so and so sometimes

Weebull said:
Yeah, but that's exactly my point. You bought them as immediate senior players, much like you mentioned Arsenal did with Arshavin. Thus, I don't think it's fair to say you developed them particularly substantially.
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I still think that from a more prominant league, or club Vidic at the same skill level as we bought him would have cost vastly more (which shows imo how little was known about him
 
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I dont think that there are any clubs really that have taken players without ability and turned them into world class players. Can anyone name a club that have nurtured more home grown players than united in the past 10 years?
 
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