Poor old Jaguar X-Type

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Alex UK said:
The problem is not that the X-type is a rubbish car, because it isn't, in fact in many ways it's very good. The problem is that it isn't a proper Jaguar. As capable as the Mondeo platform is, it's still a Mondeo platform - i.e not a Jaguar platform.
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What actual difference does this make, though? And if we are to beleive Jonnycoupe it seems the Mondeo is built on the X-Type platform and not the other way round anyway...

Platform aside, Jaguar should never have entered this market in the first place. Ford, in its infinite wisdom, decided that Jag should become a mass market manufacturer - this meant producing a 3 Series/A4/C Class rival. Jaguar are a luxury brand and entering this market only served to damage this 'luxury' image.
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Had the car not been harnessed with this ridiculous 'poor mans not a proper Jaguar' image I suspect it'd have done very well. Mercedes Benz are a luxury manufacturer as well - infact many beleive Mercedes make the worlds finest luxury cars this side of Bentley and friends - yet this didn't stop them entering the very same market in 1986 with the 190E. Nobody called the 190E a poor mans Mercedes. It was a great success and so too was the C Class which followed it. Infact in terms of actual product the W202 C Class was frankly a rubbish car - yet it didn't suffer in the way the X-Type, objectively a better car comparatively speaking, did.

Nowdays the C Class makes up the bulk of Mercedes Benz sales volume. Jaguar saw this path as one they rightly wanted to go down with the X-Type. It was, however, ruined by 'image' not neccesarily poor product.


Jaguar have since admitted this and as a result the X-type isn't being replaced. Instead, Jag are focusing on producing proper, British, world beating luxury cars. Now, in the post-Ford era, they're no longer trying to compete with the Germans in terms of sales, because that isn't what Jag is about.
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I think whats really happened is they've admitted they are incapable of competing not that they dont WANT to compete. It's not what they are about but it should be - after all, a company exists to increase shareholder value not to provide men in smoking jackets with something to discuss at the local public house.

I certainly wont be mourning it
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Given you were 9 years old when the X-Type appeared I'm not entirely sure that whistfully dreaming of the Jaguar of old is really that relevent for you (or me!).
 
The problem was when you sat in a Jag X Type it simply didn't feel or drive like a premium product should. It was neither as well sorted as a BMW, as cosseting as a Merc or as well appointed as an Audi. It was a mish mash of a car that never had an identity other than a badge on the bonet of a car make who was not really making great cars at the time across it's limited and dated range.
 
I've only ever seen one Jag dealership that I can ever remeber and I don't think it's there anymore. Modern people go out and try cars despite press and other. There's a Toyota, Merc, VW, Audi and BMW main dealer withing peeing distance of each other near me, the a short drive has you Peugeot, Citroen, Skoda Mazda and Honda. I think it's that convenience that stop people from knowing about the Jaguar, but I do see quite a few round here despite that, and it's those people who are smarter than the average joe who have supported its manufacture for this long.

Not long ago those German marques were unattainable to most people as a new car, now they're all used as company cars these days with people generally earning more and buying one for themselves. Jaguar have missed out on all that, and only have their higher marques to fall back on.
 
Out of interest. How would people respond if Bentley made an affordable executive saloon car, based on the PQ46 platform other wise used in things like the Passat?

Do you honestly believe that such a car would not be seen to cheapen the brand, and in turn overlooked or "hated" in the case of the X-Type?
 
[TW]Fox;15643906 said:
Jaguar saw this path as one they rightly wanted to go down with the X-Type. It was, however, ruined by 'image' not neccesarily poor product.
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The problem was that the game had already moved on by then, and Jaguar were late to the party. Audi had introduced their hugely successful A4, and already on the second generation by then, exactly the same with Mercedes and their C Class and BMW were on their 3rd(?) generation 3 series. Playing catch up with one hand tied behind your back (not enough investment, tech or engineering excellence) isn't a fun game for a car manufacturer to play. Arguably not quite the right product for the market that existed at the time. People don't want old fashioned ostentation these days. Since I can't see Jaguar changing the design identity of their cars, and what the brand stands for, the X-Type replacement (have they even announced one?) faces a tough marketplace.

[TW]Fox;15643906 said:
Infact in terms of actual product the W202 C Class was frankly a rubbish car - yet it didn't suffer in the way the X-Type, objectively a better car comparatively speaking, did.
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Wouldn't say it was a rubbsh car. It was still a Mercedes, but just didn't have the granite like build quality of the cars of the past. But people have long memories and peoples' perceptions of Mercedes at the time was bullet proof build and reliability. People saw it as a luxury car at a bargain price. Therefore sales. People's perceptions of Jaguar were unreliable cars that broke down regularly. Therefore no sales. Would you drop £20k,£30k etc on a car that built by a manufacturer that had a reputation for unreliabilty and will be expensive to fix?

Joshy said:
Out of interest. How would people respond if Bentley made an affordable executive saloon car, based on the PQ46 platform other wise used in things like the Passat?
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Well, it wouldn't happen for a start since there's a huge difference between Jaguar introducing a car into the segment immediately below their existing line up of cars and the likes of Bentley who exist at the very top end of the market. But if it did happen, I don't think people wouldn't buy it. They'd think 'Bentley' and then think 'expensive', and 'luxury'....and 'it will cost me an arm and a leg to service, maintain or fix.' Then they'd go out and buy a A4/C class /3 series. In all likelihood, it would be sold at a premium to the segment average in any event, which puts into a segment that doesn't really exist.
 
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You can't see Jaguar changing their design identity even though the 2010 XJ exists?

The X type 'replacment' will be going after no where near the sale of the out going car. I can tell you than for sure. So essentially there will not be a replacement.
 
All the while reading Martin's posts the below post of his kept springing to mind for some reason, I can't think why.

martinweston said:
Hmm, I have just updated my monthly spreadsheet, i think it sums up Jag ownership...

hmm.jpg
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Oh and on topic, I've always like the X-Type.
 
My 2004/04 Fabia VRS with 50k is worth around £4500. It seems I could swap it for perhaps at 2003, 60-80k 2.0 or 2.5 V6 X-Type. Similar performance as the VRS for the 2.0, bit better for the 2.5...

Insurance is group 14 or 15 compared to 9. Economy is ~30 mpg compared to ~53mpg with road tax of £245 compared to £110.

I only do around 5,000 miles a year these days, so the fuel difference would be an extra £350, tax is an extra £135, say an extra £100 insurance so in total an extra £585 a year before thinking about maintenance.

Interesting idea... but I think I'll pass.
 
clv101 said:
My 2004/04 Fabia VRS with 50k is worth around £4500. It seems I could swap it for perhaps at 2003, 60-80k 2.0 or 2.5 V6 X-Type. Similar performance as the VRS for the 2.0, bit better for the 2.5...

Insurance is group 14 or 15 compared to 9. Economy is ~30 mpg compared to ~53mpg with road tax of £245 compared to £110.

I only do around 5,000 miles a year these days, so the fuel difference would be an extra £350, tax is an extra £135, say an extra £100 insurance so in total an extra £585 a year before thinking about maintenance.

Interesting idea... but I think I'll pass.
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I am confused, are you comparing a luxurious saloon/estate to a diesel supermini or something??
 
They've tried to do something different with the XF and the KJ admittedly, but both cars are ill at ease with each other in terms of design direction. It's not clear - certainly not to me - what the brands' values are and IMO there's no coherent design identity. No surprise that they've canned the X-Type - its design is very ill at ease with the rest of the range.

Look at Mercedes. C, E, S - there's a clear design 'DNA' running through them. SL and SLK, ditto. A class, B class, ditto. Even throughout the entire range, across different segments, very clearly Mercedes. Exactly the same with Audi. Same with BMW until very recently (when they started losing the plot a bit with their obsession with 'niche' products.

Then you look at Jaguar. The XJ looks 'okay'. But then I like the rear end of the Maserati Quattroporte, the profile of the Citroen C6, the Bentley Continental GT grille, and Aston Martin DB7/9s. Of course, Ian Callum used to work for Aston Martin. But why have they painted the rear thee quarter pillar black? Then we get to the XK. Round grille? Huh? Thought Jaguar were sticking on oblong mesh grille on everything? XF? Nice looking car. Apart from the grille, it's an Aston Martin saloon. Hang on a second, where are the Quattroporte rear lights and where are the black painted rear 3/4 pillars? Why does it have (gimmicky) bubble headlights? It it because its a little bit lacking in identity otherwise? Why aren't the bubble headlights on the XF?

Maserati:
http://l.yimg.com/i/ng/sh/carenthu/...x=566&y=426&q=80&sig=yIRMR7FfNmLhgHgKTC_evg--
Jaguar:
http://www.maserati.com/mediaObject...troporteS_11/resolutions/res-694x384/data.jpg

Cohesive design direction across their range? I don't think so, though admittedly, they are halfway through revamping their car range, so who knows what the future may bring. But I do wonder they're letting Ian Callum experiment at the moment, because nobody at Jaguar really knows what a Jaguar for the 21st Century should look like.
 
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MY12 XF will probably see the removal of the bubble lights ;)

Are you actually suggesting Jaguar should stick the XF in a photocopier at 1.2 and 0.8 scale to do new models?
 
anticonscience said:
All the while reading Martin's posts the below post of his kept springing to mind for some reason, I can't think why.



Oh and on topic, I've always like the X-Type.
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Proper Jag ownership comes at a cost. As does living well. Also, you will see above i stated i use loans to get what i want so i'm not sure i see your point. Still, im sat at about 25k if you were wanting an update.

Also as mentioned above, i have property which i purchased at the right time should i be somoene who cared about numbers on a bank statement i could tweak the spreadsheet to a number closer to 0.
 
jamoor said:
I am confused, are you comparing a luxurious saloon/estate to a diesel supermini or something??
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Urm yeah... :confused:

I figure it would cost me around £50 a month more to run an X-Type than my Fabia VRS. I don't think it's worth it to me.
 
[TW]Fox;15643906 said:
I think whats really happened is they've admitted they are incapable of competing not that they dont WANT to compete. It's not what they are about but it should be - after all, a company exists to increase shareholder value not to provide men in smoking jackets with something to discuss at the local public house.
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But that's the thing, Jag are now capable of competing - they poved that with the XF which many regard as best in class. It is therefore not inconceivable that they could produce a scaled down XF which would at least be as good as the 3 Series/A4/C Class. So why no X-type replacement? Because they've realised their mistakes and decided to focus on lower volume, more expensive cars.
 
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