Poll: *** 2010 General Election Result & Discussion ***

[Dolph]

You would not vote Tory if they offered a referendum on EU - which was the ONLY condition UKIP were asking in return for not standing in GE and telling their supporters to vote UKIP.

Correct. While I believe we need to change our relationship with the EU, the decision is far too complex to be made by the proles (including me). Pulling out of the EU entirely would be to commit economic suicide, but people vote for stupid things all the time (it is, after all, how we ended up with Labour for 13 years).

UKIP are not more authoritarian in many aspects though, they support lower fuel duty and car taxes, they oppose carbon trading and capping, they oppose CCTV and ID cards

They are massively more authoritarian on immigration, crime and so on though.

 

[rypt]

For me the whole thing shows a real lack of confidence in Cameron and the tory party. Sure the tories were there for the taking in 97 and labour won a landslide. With everything that's happened since Blair passed the poison chalice this should have been a Tory landslide.

Um, Tories got a higher % of votes than Labour did in '97 ...
So more people voted them to govern than those who wanted Labour to do so in '97.

Correct. While I believe we need to change our relationship with the EU, the decision is far too complex to be made by the proles (including me). Pulling out of the EU entirely would be to commit economic suicide, but people vote for stupid things all the time (it is, after all, how we ended up with Labour for 13 years).

I disagree, we can be outside of the EU but within the trading zone .. like the Swiss and Norway.

They are massively more authoritarian on immigration, crime and so on though.

You call it authoritarian, I call it more tough.
They are NOT the BNP when it comes to immigration, what they want to impose if I remember correctly is the Aussie style immigration system, where if you got skills (and a job secured) that are needed you are welcome.

Anyway, I voted Tory in the end as I didn't like the local UKIP woman.

 

[RDM]

It's clearly a major issue for a great number of people. Why not just put it to population and see what they decide - I find it hard to understand the argument for preventing the public from voting on how they want to vote for their government I could understand the reticence if the LD's wanted a straight change of the system without consulting the public but as the Tories should know, sometimes the call for a referendum can be quite a popular tactic

Forgive me if I do not believe the Lib Dems on their promises of a referendum, they have a poor track record there, especially with things close to their heart...

I thought this was also very surprising, actually

Are the media predictions of a public rage-out if the Libs/Lab form a coalition overstated?

About as much as the forum Lib/Lab supporters predictions of a rage out with a Con/Lib coalition.

 

[avec]

Would a third still be in favour of a Lib/Lab coalition if they knew it meant the Scots/Welsh successfully holding our country to ransom over cuts and increased funding, forcing the burden to rest solely on English shoulders?

How many of those people polled actually know what PR is? Do they know the difference between the different systems and most importantly, do they know the potential implications of those systems?

There are pro's and con's to any system, we are getting a bit of a taste of one of the big con's of a PR system right now - closed backroom deals where policies are negotiated upon and an entirely new 'manifesto' is drawn up between two or more parties. Policies on such a manifesto may or may not be what the majority actually voted for and you may end up with a highly disliked policy being enacted due to one parties ability to hold the others to ransom in order to get their own policies through parliament.

Further criticism could be put towards PR based upon the potential for the two (or more) weaker parties being able to take control of the country based upon these dodgy backroom deals and the party that the majority voted for being all but forced out of proceedings.

Is any of this any fairer, really?

I bet if Lab/Lib/SNP/PC forge a backroom deal that protects/enriches Scotland/Wales at the expense of England and the election winners, as well as Clegg and the Lib Dems going back on their word for selfish reasons in order to get PR to improve their own parties power share and Gordon Brown remaining in government (or another unelected Primeminister is ushered in to take his place), the same PR protesters wouldn't protest would they?

 

[Dolph]

Of course opinions may vary, however I think the call for a more proportional voting system has been around for a lot longer than 'Clegg-mania' and as such the call for it would be strong in any referendum - for example, UKIP supports AVplus in local and national elections and you could see many of the 'fringe' parties mobilising their parties to call for a 'Yes' vote on PR which I think could prove a very compelling voice in favour of it.

The very fact that the Tories don't even want to give the public the choice I suspect gives away that they deeply fear 'losing' - much like Labour weaseled out of a referendum on the EU because they feared 'losing'.

Or alternatively they genuinely believe that the UK is better served by a stronger government that PR generally can't deliver, and they recognise the risks that the public en masse is frequently wrong, especially where complex constitutional issues are concerned.

I'm sitting on the fence on this one as to how I would vote in a referendum on PR, because it would depend very much on the nature of the system. PR without appropriate checks and balances would result in far less power to the electorate than they currently have, but a great many people don't understand this idea.

 

[Captain_Slick]

Um, Tories got a higher % of votes than Labour did in '97 ...

How is 36.1% of the vote in 2010 more than 43.2% of the vote in 1997?

 

[z3r0]

Is free trade even on the table if we removed ourself.

Of course. Europe wouldn't want to stop trading with us just before we left their social group. We could quite easily have a similar free trade agreement as Switzerland has with the EU.

 

[Sankari]

Yes, as i posted earlier...

LOL at the guy who yelled "Nick, I want to have your babies!"

RDM, i'm not sure who exactly said it but there is certainly a forum member who has said that they support dictatorship on more than one occasion, Dolph springs to mind.

Dolph doesn't want a dictatorship; he wants feudalism.

 

[Glaucus]

Of course. Europe wouldn't want to stop trading with us just before we left their social group. We could quite easily have a similar free trade agreement as Switzerland has with the EU.

You say that, but have nothing to back it up. They got free trade decades ago, the eu is not the same.

Why would eu let one of the biggest net contributors leave.

 

[bigredshark]

Um, Tories got a higher % of votes than Labour did in '97 ...
So more people voted them to govern than those who wanted Labour to do so in '97.

In what parallel universe does is the 43.2% labour won in 1997 'less' than the 36.1% the conservatives just got?

Bah, too slow...

 

[mmj_uk]

Had Tories been a bit more right wing, and given a referendum on EU, then they would be in power right now

I'm surprised they didn't promise a referendum just to win more votes and then change their minds once in power, it worked for Labour.

 

[Dolph]

Um, Tories got a higher % of votes than Labour did in '97 ...
So more people voted them to govern than those who wanted Labour to do so in '97.

No they didn't. Labour got a lower share of the votes than the Tories achieved in 1997. In no way did Cameron beat the labour vote percentage in 1997.

I disagree, we can be outside of the EU but within the trading zone .. like the Swiss and Norway.

Not with the policies UKIP want to implement we couldn't. EEA is my preferred setup with the EU, but there are still a lot of EU rules that you have to follow to be in the EEA, including freedom of movement of people.

You call it authoritarian, I call it more tough.
They are NOT the BNP when it comes to immigration, what they want to impose if I remember correctly is the Aussie style immigration system, where if you got skills (and a job secured) that are needed you are welcome.

Anyway, I voted Tory in the end as I didn't like the local UKIP woman.

They want to impose that on temporary workers, and go for a freeze on all immigration followed by a cap on total immigration that will lead to an overall population reduction... They are not really making anyone welcome.

 

[PermaBanned]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/may/08/david-cameron-faces-tory-anger

 

[z3r0]

Why would eu let one of the biggest net contributors leave.

Because the people of Britain voted to? I think a clause in the Lisbon Treaty has a process for members to leave. They would just have to accept it.

 

[rypt]

In what parallel universe does is the 43.2% labour won in 1997 'less' than the 36.1% the conservatives just got?

Bah, too slow...

Oops, I was looking at the previous election to that

 

[PMKeates]

Oops, I was looking at the previous election to that

Wikipedia needs to list the vote shares in a more logical order

 

[Glaucus]

Because the people of Britain voted to? I think a clause in the Lisbon Treaty has a process for members to leave. They would just have to accept it.

They would not have to offer us anything, like free trade if they did not want to. Which was my point.

People assume free trade is on the table, when it isn't. At best it is a guess.

 

[Rich_L]

Or alternatively they genuinely believe that the UK is better served by a stronger government that PR generally can't deliver, and they recognise the risks that the public en masse is frequently wrong, especially where complex constitutional issues are concerned.

How do you reconcile the latter with the Tory position on referendums on, for example, EU matters? I find that very hard to believe when they put at the heart of their manifesto on Europe

A Conservative government will change the law so that never again would a government be able to agree to a Treaty that hands over areas of power from Britain to the EU without a referendum. That would include any attempt to scrap the pound for the euro;

That they recognise the risks that the public en masse is frequently wrong

I'm surprised the media hasn't picked up on this dissonance in the Tory stance - we'll give you a referendum on the EU because the public deserve to be heard, but not on voting reform because....

 

[rypt]

Other countries have caps Dolph, including Aus and USA (for their visas at least)
There is nothing with free movement, provided it is between countries of equal stature .. so between UK, France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, and so on.

 

[dannyjo22]

Oops, I was looking at the previous election to that