Poll: *** 2010 General Election Result & Discussion ***

[Mr Jack]

It's a reference to the leadership he provided when the banks were collapsing. He's widely credited abroad for his fast, decisive action and the example he set to other world leaders. Without Brown as our PM at that time who knows, the yanks might have let a bunch of other banks go down.

Yeah, Brown as PM actually did quite well dealing with a horrific crisis. It's the rest of his record that damns him. I'm glad to see him gone. I'm not sure yet that Cameron is an improvement but his willingness to compromise and form a government with the Libs is to his enormous credit; many other potential Tory leaders would have thrown the country's interests to the wind and gambled on a rapid election.

I said at the start of this election that a Lib-Con partnership was the best conceivable outcome, I wavered from that during the course of things as more and more bad Tory policies came to light but, at the end of the day, I'm actually quite hopefully now. May Cameron surpase my expectations as much as Blair disappointed them.

 

[Andy_82]

You know the ONLY place I've heard that, is in Browns speeches, where he recognises himself as the saviour of the world.

He got us out of the recession, by buying his way out of it, which just worsens our debt long term, to almost unmanageable levels. We got into a recession because he's systematically lost private sector jobs and shifted people into public sector jobs, sucking tax revenue, rather than generating it.

Banks are a scapegoat for the recession, worldwide, had the USA/UK not lost such massive amounts of private sector, industrial and manfacturing jobs to China/Asia as a whole, neither country would have come close to a recession, both countries have bailed themselves out with debt they can't afford to repay, increasing interest payments to dangerous levels devaluing both currencies and theres a real question mark over if we can ever get to safer levels of debt.

We're at around a trillion in debt, and thanks to the massive and quick increase, and the now larger interest rate the higher amount of debt gathers, and the weakening pound, we're now forecast to be at 1.4trillion in debt in just 4 years. Can you imagine the situation if our debt increased by 40-45% every 4 years, in not to long, China will stop buying our debt and we'll be completely and utterly screwed.

We didn't tighten our belts and work through a long hard recession, we took out a new loan to pay off the first one, with a larger interest rate. Basically we delayed our pretty bad recession and most likely just made certain of a much worse, much longer recession not too long in the future, yay.

If you follow that argument Japan, Germany wouldn't of had a recession

 

[easyrider]

Why? A lot of private sector employees have been on a pay freeze ever since the banking crisis started.

Examples?


I just want to make sure that these workers are as important as nurses and teachers.

 

[Captain_Slick]

You know the ONLY place I've heard that, is in Browns speeches, where he recognises himself as the saviour of the world.

He got us out of the recession, by buying his way out of it, which just worsens our debt long term, to almost unmanageable levels. We got into a recession because he's systematically lost private sector jobs and shifted people into public sector jobs, sucking tax revenue, rather than generating it.

Banks are a scapegoat for the recession, worldwide, had the USA/UK not lost such massive amounts of private sector, industrial and manfacturing jobs to China/Asia as a whole, neither country would have come close to a recession, both countries have bailed themselves out with debt they can't afford to repay, increasing interest payments to dangerous levels devaluing both currencies and theres a real question mark over if we can ever get to safer levels of debt.

We're at around a trillion in debt, and thanks to the massive and quick increase, and the now larger interest rate the higher amount of debt gathers, and the weakening pound, we're now forecast to be at 1.4trillion in debt in just 4 years. Can you imagine the situation if our debt increased by 40-45% every 4 years, in not to long, China will stop buying our debt and we'll be completely and utterly screwed.

We didn't tighten our belts and work through a long hard recession, we took out a new loan to pay off the first one, with a larger interest rate. Basically we delayed our pretty bad recession and most likely just made certain of a much worse, much longer recession not too long in the future, yay.

We're going to follow in Japan's footsteps and have to endure a decade of economic sleep.

This isn't a problem affecting just us and the US though, every developed country in the world has extremely high levels of debt - public or private.

 

[meghatronic]

One thing I have taken from these elections is a Gordon Brown soundbite: "Get real". I rather like it .

 

[Captain_Slick]

One thing I have taken from these elections is a Gordon Brown soundbite: "Get real". I rather like it .

He's had quite a few good ones. Is anyone else left feeling quite impressed by him after today? His speech was quite good, and the timing of his resignation very smart. No doubt Mandelson and Campbell had something to do with it.

Also, I'm loving Clegg go on about finally seeing the kind of politics that he's wanted... yet no referendum on the electoral system as of yet and speaking as if coalition governments don't exist in the world.

 

[Mr Jack]

Good speech from Clegg. Glad to see thing confirmed.

I'll be interested in the details that emerge tomorrow.

 

[djmc0]

You know what? Scandinavian Countries hit the highs in quality of living (My ex girlfriend was swedish, but she don't count as her parents where religous nuts) but they seem to hit the quality of life highs year after year, and being there for a while I agree. Why do we not just copy their policies, I am sure there is a reason, but numbers do not lie

 

[Captain_Slick]

You know what? Scandinavian Countries hit the highs in quality of living (My ex girlfriend was swedish, but she don't count as her parents where religous nuts) but they seem to hit the quality of life highs year after year, and being there for a while I agree. Why do we not just copy their policies, I am sure there is a reason, but numbers do not lie

They have much higher taxes across the board. People won't like it.

 

[djmc0]

They have much higher taxes across the board. People won't like it.

Fair enough. After experiencing that life for a while, I'd like it. I already hit 40% tax and I am not a big earner, well not in the square mile I'm not, how higher can it go?

But then I see t goes against the regiment of earning as much as you can which is rife in this country, that being the country in Europe where a class divide exists, I don't mean the todays class divide, as it has always been that way since we found table legs offensive and had to cover them with a table cloth.

The class divide to me is as worthless as toilet paper, but it still exists, A few of my friends come from middle class backgrounds, I don't. but they do. Just to clarify, THEY ARE MIDDLE CLASS, I AM NOT. They have had doors opened for them that I could dream for, I get better gcse - A levels, yet, I couldn't go to University, not because I couldn't afford tuition, as you know you can loan that, but because in the year 2000 I was expected to go out and earn money to bring into the household.

 

[UncleBob]

Examples?

I just want to make sure that these workers are as important as nurses and teachers.

Nurses and Teachers won't get us out of the financial crisis, so why give them preferential treatment? Lots of jobs are stressful but the public sector just complains more.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...s-for-millions-of-private-sector-workers.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5822223.ece

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8362169.stm

 

[Captain_Slick]

Fair enough. After experiencing that life for a while, I'd like it. I already hit 40% tax and I am not a big earner, well not in the square mile I'm not, how higher can it go?

Our current average tax rate is 39%. Swedens is 49%, Denmarks is 50%, Norways and Finlands are 43%.

 

[rypt]

Our current average tax rate is 39%. Swedens is 49%, Denmarks is 50%, Norways and Finlands are 43%.

Yes, but those countries get A LOT more for the money. People do not object to paying more tax if they get AMAZING service, we pay lots of tax and get really crap service.

Put it this way, Sweden runs on probably 95% efficiency for public sector, we run on about 5%.

Fair enough. After experiencing that life for a while, I'd like it. I already hit 40% tax and I am not a big earner, well not in the square mile I'm not, how higher can it go?

But then I see t goes against the regiment of earning as much as you can which is rife in this country, that being the country in Europe where a class divide exists, I don't mean the todays class divide, as it has always been that way since we found table legs offensive and had to cover them with a table cloth.

The class divide to me is as worthless as toilet paper, but it still exists, A few of my friends come from middle class backgrounds, I don't. but they do. Just to clarify, THEY ARE MIDDLE CLASS, I AM NOT. They have had doors opened for them that I could dream for, I get better gcse - A levels, yet, I couldn't go to University, not because I couldn't afford tuition, as you know you can loan that, but because in the year 2000 I was expected to go out and earn money to bring into the household.

Class divide my left testicle, class divide is something those who have refused to make something of their lives harp on about.
My dad is half British / half Portuguese but was brought up in Goa (former Portuguese colony in India), his father was in the merchant navy. My dad left home at 16 and joined the Merchant navy too, ended up serving as an engineer for years, before coming to UK and doing his degree in engineering, then going back and serving as a chief engineer. Then moving into Lloyds surveying, then onto Lloyds publishing, eventually moving into other types of publishing, then marketing management - which is what he still works as now.
So he's taken him self from working class roots, and is now middle class.




Anyway, back to the election.
What I want to see is a full account of the current state of the countries finances.

 

[Captain_Slick]

Yes, but those countries get A LOT more for the money. People do not object to paying more tax if they get AMAZING service, we pay lots of tax and get really crap service.

Put it this way, Sweden runs on probably 95% efficiency for public sector, we run on about 5%.

Yes? I was just listing figures... I would have thought your point was obvious. Of course they get more done, they're European.

 

[djmc0]

Our current average tax rate is 39%. Swedens is 49%, Denmarks is 50%, Norways and Finlands are 43%.

What is the point you are trying to make? I've already told you that I lived over there and worked there, I am not opposed to a high tax. Not really. I'm proud of our NHS, I live right next to one of the best hospitals in europe, the royal London hospital. I realise my point of view is a minority one, that's why I will never push it. But there is a reason why Scandinavian Countries constantly beat us for quality of life.

 

[Captain_Slick]

What is the point you are trying to make? I've already told you that I lived over there and worked there, I am not opposed to a high tax. Not really. I'm proud of our NHS, I live right next to one of the best hospitals in europe, the royal London hospital. I realise my point of view is a minority one, that's why I will never push it. But there is a reason why Scandinavian Countries constantly beat us for quality of life.

What? You asked what the rise would be! I was just listening the figures!

I wasn't making any point... Weirdo.

 

[djmc0]

What? You asked what the rise would be! I was just listening the figures!

I wasn't making any point... Weirdo.

Yeah you did! lol Excuse my errr.. inebriatedness. Please?

 

[Andy_82]

What is the point you are trying to make? I've already told you that I lived over there and worked there, I am not opposed to a high tax. Not really. I'm proud of our NHS, I live right next to one of the best hospitals in europe, the royal London hospital. I realise my point of view is a minority one, that's why I will never push it. But there is a reason why Scandinavian Countries constantly beat us for quality of life.

I agree with your view, i think our public services would be better if government was less envoled with policy. for example, the NHS should be run by the people who understand the needs best i.e. doctors and other staff. I think their is was too much central control. I am one of the biggest fans of the NHS and it has improved over the service in the 90's but not enough. I think the tories have a good idea in the 'big society' but in the campaign I heard very little about it. It needs to be developed much further, not least so ordanary people can understand it.

 

[avec]

The Scandinavian countries are broadly modern societies, their countries are run in a modern and efficient way. Of course the other fantastic thing about them is that they are large countries with very few people in them, especially when you compare them to our own.

We on the other hand are a very old society, we were first to many of the big things in the world and as such we've paid the price in many ways. There are so many people here that it's impossible to shut things down or pause for a bit and start again. Everything that happens is overwhelmingly influenced by what happened before, everything is inherited in this country and it's extremely hard to get away from things that are run badly.

If you just take a wasteful department of the civil service as an example.

This example department could be completely useless, a department of 'non-jobs' made up for some silly reason years ago. Despite the complete uselessness of the department, it would be extremely hard to shut it down and enjoy the savings. You'd put people out of a job, who's only experience of work may well be public sector work, particularly specialising in the 'non-job' variety. Even if you did terminate the department, you'd likely face a lot of industrial action and pressure from all civil servants to protect their jobs and salaries.

It all becomes rather difficult to get rid of something that is so obviously wasteful and legitimately recognised as such by everyone.

If you add disagreement from other parties and them spinning things against you for cutting then you further compound the problem.

This situation is going to play itself out around the countries of the UK over the next few years, only many of the departments wont always seem so completely useless and the amount of resistance to closing them will be even more fierce.

We have so many burdens that all governments inherit, it is rather impossible for us to ever truly turn ourselves into something resembling a Scandinavian country.

A good start would be to cull half the population, particularly those who aren't contributing to society or who are in wasteful public sector jobs, or the elderly. That would reduce many of our problems dramatically and we could start thinking about changing things for the better. Obviously this is completely unrealistic, but it's just a way of showing how impossible it would be for us to change like that.

 

[djmc0]

What? You asked what the rise would be! I was just listening the figures!

I wasn't making any point... Weirdo.

No need for the personal attack you weirdo. In fact, I think it is you who is the one that is the weirdo

I'm sure glad that I live in a country that I can call you weirdo! I suggest that you smoke them apples and shove offcuts down your pipe so that you may splutter!