World Cup 2010 - GROUP C (England, USA, Algeria, Slovenia) **spoilers**

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Rooney is good, but he's not untouchable. Of course he should be there, but when he's out of form, there's no reason why he should still start every game. Instead, why not play two other strikers from the start and finally have a sub that will actually strike a little bit of fear into the opposition rather than laughing at a 6 foot 7 beanpole coming on five minutes from time.
 
ghost101 said:
Yeh the Rooney bashing is stupid. If he quit international football and continued to perform very well at the club level (which he probably will), the people being critical will look like mugs. Of course Rooney, isn't going to quit because of idiots.
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agreed, but does that mean if you do well for your club are you going to do well for the national team?

imo i dont think it does but you are expected to. we had players in stupid positions yesterday
 
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People really should remember that he's the highest scoring english striker...... THIS YEAR, but most years he most certainly is not. He's scored under 10 in the league in more than a few seasons while Defoe/Bent have scored around the 20 mark quite a few times.

Lets have a look Rooney, 26 goals this year, then going back, 12, 12, 14, 16, 11, 9 and before then played a vastly lower number of games.

Bent started off with 12, 17,20,18, 6, 12 and 24 this year.

Lets be honest, 24 for Sunderland, who were a bit pap is more impressive than 26 as the focal point at Utd. The rest of his career the only two years he was "poor" one he matched Rooney, with FAR less games played, his 6 goals was with 11 games started at Spurs, where he was clearly being benched. So it took Bent playing less than 1/3 of the season to have Rooney outscore him, basically once in his career.

Bent is VERY clearly consistantly a higher scorer, has been for 8 years, and even his low scoring years are pretty impressive considering games played.

Bent, frankly, is quite clearly out best "striker" and its INSANE he's not included, absolutely INSANE.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/stats?id=8111&cc=5739

Rooney's by no means bad, Defoe's goal scoring record is actually quite poor, obviously not as bad as Heskey, whose managed 10 in the league twice, in a decade, and most years scores 2-5 goals a season which is frankly completely pathetic. Heskey also has like 30 assists, in about 10 years in the league, with over 300 appearances, which averages at 3 a year, how people believe he can knock things on and set things up for others based on 3 lousy assists a year, when often playing 35-40games a season is a joke.

AS I said, Rooney is a good striker, but the way he's played, he needs dropping for a whole bunch of reasons. WE also need to remember, just like the way maybe out best actual two midfielders are Gerrard/Lampard, they DO NOT WORK well together, we'd actually have a better midfield playing one of them, or neither, and two what are considered less good midfielders, who actually play well together.

Just because Rooney is playing well at Utd, doesn't mean he should automatically start for England, its a different team, we should be picking who works for that team the best, not whose best in other teams.

How many times have supposedly world class players absolutely fallen flat on their face moving to another club, players will not play as well in every team, thats a clearly proven fact many many many times over. Kaka is 1/10th the player for Madrid than he was for Milan.
 
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^^^^

Not taking Bent is something that a lot of people picked up on when the squad was announced.

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=16664310&postcount=134
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=16664348&postcount=141

I could just have been lucky. But like I said, it was a very surprising decision to make as you've shown.

Why is Rooney an automatic start? Because you have to play two of Defoe, Heskey, Crouch otherwise.

This season Rooney however was scoring goals due to good service (how many headers did he score again?) and in the last game Lennon was no where to be found, Gerrard can't play on the wing and Heskey kept pushing out right because space was there (but he was useless with the ball and made marking Rooney easy). With Lampard and Gerrard having bad games, where were England's goals going to come from? These problems can't be solved for future games, and that's why England will fail to do well. Only positive is that of the teams that played us, very few good chances were created against us.

Before the WC I placed a £20 bet on Argentina winning (@9/1) simply because you look at their attack and you wonder how any defence could hold them off (for similar reasons I felt Spain were clear favourites before the WC started). Now they are favourites to win I would argue (with hindsight of course) because everyone is so defensive. Trying to break through well trained and positioned defences is the key to winning games.

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I also think it is important to note that form can change very quickly from both good to bad (Podolski) and the other way (Higuain), so all is not lost for English hopes on Rooney doing well. If he doesn't though, consider that a lot of very good players so far haven't really turned up at the world cup. Judging someone on 3 games is stupid.
 
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drunkenmaster said:
Lets be honest, 24 for Sunderland, who were a bit pap is more impressive than 26 as the focal point at Utd. The rest of his career the only two years he was "poor" one he matched Rooney, with FAR less games played, his 6 goals was with 11 games started at Spurs, where he was clearly being benched. So it took Bent playing less than 1/3 of the season to have Rooney outscore him, basically once in his career.

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1stly - I bet that Bent scored more % of goals for Sunderland than Rooney did for Utd (ie Bent is the main route to scoring a goal - very few others are meant to), exactly the opposite of Utd where midfielders, defenders and the other strikers are all meant to chip in regularly

It would be interesting to see how many Bent scored in one game (for all we know it could be 3 deuce's and flopped in 8 games), while NOT playing alongside the best player on the planet (or in the top 3) for the last three years - and Bent didnt have to continually play out of position either unlike Rooney until last season.

You are also "forgetting" the liklihood that being a sub, Bent would be playing the minor league games - where defences and goalies arent as good, so easier to score, where Rooney would more likely to be rested - Bent would also be fresher throughout the year by not playing as many games, and he wouldnt be playing in Europe (so has more time to recover between matches)

Given the striking positions again next season I would still bet Rooney is more likely to score over 30 again in all games, than Bent to score in the mid 20's

Unless the team is Newcastle - no-one is extra hyped to play Sunderland, an average mid-table team, exactly the opposite can be said regarding Chelsea and Utd (and to lesser extent Arsenal and Liverpool)

Utd (and Chelsea next season) face a seige mentality every week being champions - I bet Sunderland and Spurs face teams playing more like how they are usually set up to (either full out attack or on counter)

So many reason why they cant be compared its blindingly obvious
 
drunkenmaster said:
People really should remember that he's the highest scoring english striker...... THIS YEAR, but most years he most certainly is not. He's scored under 10 in the league in more than a few seasons while Defoe/Bent have scored around the 20 mark quite a few times.

Lets have a look Rooney, 26 goals this year, then going back, 12, 12, 14, 16, 11, 9 and before then played a vastly lower number of games.

Bent started off with 12, 17,20,18, 6, 12 and 24 this year.

Lets be honest, 24 for Sunderland, who were a bit pap is more impressive than 26 as the focal point at Utd. The rest of his career the only two years he was "poor" one he matched Rooney, with FAR less games played, his 6 goals was with 11 games started at Spurs, where he was clearly being benched. So it took Bent playing less than 1/3 of the season to have Rooney outscore him, basically once in his career.

Bent is VERY clearly consistantly a higher scorer, has been for 8 years, and even his low scoring years are pretty impressive considering games played.

Bent, frankly, is quite clearly out best "striker" and its INSANE he's not included, absolutely INSANE.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/stats?id=8111&cc=5739

Rooney's by no means bad, Defoe's goal scoring record is actually quite poor, obviously not as bad as Heskey, whose managed 10 in the league twice, in a decade, and most years scores 2-5 goals a season which is frankly completely pathetic. Heskey also has like 30 assists, in about 10 years in the league, with over 300 appearances, which averages at 3 a year, how people believe he can knock things on and set things up for others based on 3 lousy assists a year, when often playing 35-40games a season is a joke.

AS I said, Rooney is a good striker, but the way he's played, he needs dropping for a whole bunch of reasons. WE also need to remember, just like the way maybe out best actual two midfielders are Gerrard/Lampard, they DO NOT WORK well together, we'd actually have a better midfield playing one of them, or neither, and two what are considered less good midfielders, who actually play well together.

Just because Rooney is playing well at Utd, doesn't mean he should automatically start for England, its a different team, we should be picking who works for that team the best, not whose best in other teams.

How many times have supposedly world class players absolutely fallen flat on their face moving to another club, players will not play as well in every team, thats a clearly proven fact many many many times over. Kaka is 1/10th the player for Madrid than he was for Milan.
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Just as I thought your on drugs !!!!!!!

The reason why Bent is banging them in for Sunderland is because it is zero pressure. Whilst Bent has also scored more goals in the league you have to remember that in the seasons you mentioned, Rooney was scoring in Europe and being sacrificed to allow Ronaldo a more advanced position.

This little hobby horse you have of Bashing Rooney with all the 'Fachts' & 'Stats' from last season's Prem & continuing into the world cup is statistically correct, it's Bull**** nonetheless.

If you really think that Bent would score more at this World Cup given the awful set up of the team from back to front then you are deluded.

Stop taking the class A's, step through the doors of reality and get a grip
 
When all else fails, lets start banging on about 'Pride' and 'Passion' :rolleyes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/world_cup_2010/8749739.stm

Might as well get Keegan back in charge. If all we can do is say with a bit more pride and passion were buggered. I can't see how that will get

Lampard & Gerrard playing together.

Gareth Barry playing anything other than the safe 100% short five foot pass

Glen Johnson actually offering the team anything defensive wise

Joe Cole on the pitch

Wayne Rooney some decent service

Get the team playing football in the final 3rd.

But hey lets all go out flying into tackles with a bit of urgency, get key players sent off and go home with the English bulldog spirit in tact. Pride and Passion boys that's what it's all about. PRIDE AND PASSION !!!!
 
The England squad went to visit an orphanage in South Africa this morning.

"It's good to put a smile on the faces of people with no hope, who are constantly struggling and facing the impossible" said Jamal Umboto aged 6
 
Loki said:
Just as I thought your on drugs !!!!!!!

The reason why Bent is banging them in for Sunderland is because it is zero pressure. Whilst Bent has also scored more goals in the league you have to remember that in the seasons you mentioned, Rooney was scoring in Europe and being sacrificed to allow Ronaldo a more advanced position.

This little hobby horse you have of Bashing Rooney with all the 'Fachts' & 'Stats' from last season's Prem & continuing into the world cup is statistically correct, it's Bull**** nonetheless.

If you really think that Bent would score more at this World Cup given the awful set up of the team from back to front then you are deluded.

Stop taking the class A's, step through the doors of reality and get a grip
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Firstly, I wasn't bashing Rooney, saying he's very good, and the second best striker is hardly "bashing" is it, neither have I ever bashed Rooney. I've said many times in the past he's not a prolific striker, which is factually true, he's only ever ONCE scored over 14 in the league, this season, once. Thats simply not a full on prolific striker, he's not in the same league(yet) as the likes of Henry, RVN, Higuan, Ronaldo, Messi , etc, etc, etc.

As for Bent, sorry but why is there less pressure on him at Sunderland exactly? he has a significantly worse team around him, yet is expected to prevent Sunderland from being relegated, he didn't have a 30million striker to score 12-13 goals alongside him, nor wingers who chipped in a fair few.

Likewise you're talking about Sunderland, his previous goal scoring has always been high, be it a team pushing for champions league when he was under huge pressure from a moronic manager that was clearly saying, score or you won't play again for several more games, thats more pressure than Rooney's under. At Ipswich and Charlton his goals would be the difference between relegation or not. Likewise he consistantly scores against the top 4, something Rooney doesn't do. He consistantly scores against the best defences in the league, sorry but by what measure do you assume Rooney is more qualified to score against International sides than Rooney.

Didn't bent score against Chelsea, Utd, Pool, Spurs, and Arsenal? Yup, just checked, the only top side he didn't score against was City, so thats the entire top 4.


Anyway, lets again address the fact you added things to what I said, to then claim I was wrong. Please point out where I said Bent would score more in this setup than Rooney..... really, you can't, because you just added that in.

I simply was responding to someone saying Rooney was the best striker, he's not even close statistically, he's not got anywhere near in the same league as the best strikers goal scoring record. Bents close but not near the best, but he's never been at a "great" club, even if Spurs count(debatable) he wasn't being played.

All I actually said was its ridiculous he wasn't taken. He has a better scoring record that Rooney, he has a far better scoring record than Defoe(whose record is FAR worse than you'd think), Crouch, and so far ahead of Heskey its embarassing. Can you see anywhere saying I think he'd score more than Rooney in this crap setup, no, but if Bent had been picked, correctly, on merit it would be a different setup. The decision that should have taken Bent, would probably be alongside many other inteligent decisions like taking Gerrard or Lampard, no King, no Caragher, an actual defender at right back, etc, etc.

I also find it laughable that Capello talks about having to have a big and small striker. In what world is Rooney a "small" striker, seriously? He's a big guy with a lot of strength, being black and 2 inches taller, but can't jump to save his life doesn't make Heskey a "big guy" , prime candidate to be a bouncer after his career is finished, sure, quality "big man" upfront, not even close. Frankly Rooney + bent/Defoe would be a little and large upfront partnership.


As for Rooney being sacrificed to play Ronaldo further up field.... rubbish, pure and utter rubbish. THat happened towards the end of ONE season, that Rooney hadn't been prolific in before Ronaldo was played as a striker a half dozen teams, neither had it ever happened before in any other season. Most times that ONE season Rooney was played wide left with Tevez or Berb upfront, not Ronaldo. Most seasons since he joined, and two at Everton he was not a prolific goal scorer, blaming this in a half dozen games Ronaldo played as a striker is embarassing, for you.

Rooney has a huge amount to his game, hopefully he can put in more seasons with 20+ goals, but considering pretty much every striker in the league scored a silly amount this year, and ALL teams scored a lot more this year in general its a bit premature to assume he'll do that every year. If he does, great, if he doesn't, who cares, he's still a great player.

Again I'll point out, the stats suggest for 6-7 years Bent has been the most prolific England striker, consistantly, and yet Defoe/Heskey/Crouch went instead, as before, thats completely insane and is just one of the many ridiculous decisions taken with this squad.
 
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Rooney hasn't played very well since he had that injury. Defoe and Crouch would work well I think, height and over head kicks :p, and a fast runner and good finisher, sort of like Sheringham and Shearer :) Oh and lennon to get a good ball in too, sionce he left walcott out the squad. If not, well, Wednesday is when we all start to support whoever plays the USA :)
 
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