Interesting that you say that, I can't hear mine at all.
Krell Announces Reference Blu-ray Player
- Thread starter lunarwolf
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Interesting that you say that, I can't hear mine at all.
Guess you should tell Criterion that.
Soldato
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I know it's tough for people to see, or hear the differences between kit like this, and I think the biggest reason is because the 1080p picture given from blu-ray is already very good. people often think - how could this 1920x1080 digital image be any better?
For the most consumer gear, that is probably true. but this Krell player is not a player for a typical consumer - whether it's better than a PS3, sadly is beside the point. It's a reference player, designed for custom installs, or absolute enthusiasts. I'd imagine that no expense has been spared with it, and costs add up. De-construct any really high end AV gear and you will find that the cost of the components and casing will be reflected in the cost of the unit. Don't forget that bespoke items tend not to be mass produced - increasing costs even more. Cost comes from the wages paid to small teams of people researching, building, testing and so on. These is a lot more to the price of an item than only 'the item', think about it. Krell will have evaluated everything they have spent on the development of this player, from the twinkle in the boss's eye to the final result. I've no doubt that the cost of the components will be justified, but the cost of the performance, for some will never be justified if they are happy with the equipment they have, and don't believe the difference in cost is worth the difference in picture - then again this player will be off limits to most people. The justification in the pirce / performance depends either on how much income you have, or how much enthusiasm you have. I dont mean that in a blunt 'only the rich can afford it' way, but when your income is in a bracket where the difference between 1k and 7 k is relative to the difference between £120 and £500 for soemone on a lower income, it's not too much of a stretch to upgrade your blu-ray source, even if it is to gain only a marginal difference.
[disclaimer: I hope it's not another lexicon jobbie
]
Don;t get me wrong, nothing is going to stop people who can, buying the most expensive items that they can, however I don't believe this is what Krell had in mind when they developed this - I think they just went all out to build the best they could with what was availible to them, and with a no-holds-barred apporach to cost. at the end of the day, no one is forced to buy something - everyone chooses.
Lucid: I respect your selfless attitude towards your business and clients, it might not make much business sense from some peoples eyes, but I imagine you go home at the end of the day happy with your self, and happy for your clients. The ability to have an imparcial view or oppinion on equipment, as a result of using it every day, but not shelling out personaly for it is unique; not many occupations allow you to experience that. I understand where you're coming from there.
you can only guess how well something performs by testing it yourself, I can't have an opinion on how the krell's picture compares to anything else because I've not seen it. you can only make a guess, at best.
Rick
For the most consumer gear, that is probably true. but this Krell player is not a player for a typical consumer - whether it's better than a PS3, sadly is beside the point. It's a reference player, designed for custom installs, or absolute enthusiasts. I'd imagine that no expense has been spared with it, and costs add up. De-construct any really high end AV gear and you will find that the cost of the components and casing will be reflected in the cost of the unit. Don't forget that bespoke items tend not to be mass produced - increasing costs even more. Cost comes from the wages paid to small teams of people researching, building, testing and so on. These is a lot more to the price of an item than only 'the item', think about it. Krell will have evaluated everything they have spent on the development of this player, from the twinkle in the boss's eye to the final result. I've no doubt that the cost of the components will be justified, but the cost of the performance, for some will never be justified if they are happy with the equipment they have, and don't believe the difference in cost is worth the difference in picture - then again this player will be off limits to most people. The justification in the pirce / performance depends either on how much income you have, or how much enthusiasm you have. I dont mean that in a blunt 'only the rich can afford it' way, but when your income is in a bracket where the difference between 1k and 7 k is relative to the difference between £120 and £500 for soemone on a lower income, it's not too much of a stretch to upgrade your blu-ray source, even if it is to gain only a marginal difference.
[disclaimer: I hope it's not another lexicon jobbie
]Don;t get me wrong, nothing is going to stop people who can, buying the most expensive items that they can, however I don't believe this is what Krell had in mind when they developed this - I think they just went all out to build the best they could with what was availible to them, and with a no-holds-barred apporach to cost. at the end of the day, no one is forced to buy something - everyone chooses.
Lucid: I respect your selfless attitude towards your business and clients, it might not make much business sense from some peoples eyes, but I imagine you go home at the end of the day happy with your self, and happy for your clients. The ability to have an imparcial view or oppinion on equipment, as a result of using it every day, but not shelling out personaly for it is unique; not many occupations allow you to experience that. I understand where you're coming from there.
you can only guess how well something performs by testing it yourself, I can't have an opinion on how the krell's picture compares to anything else because I've not seen it. you can only make a guess, at best.
Rick
the real question is though, is how much does the increased cost of the components translate into increased PQ ?
How much of an improvement in PQ offer. Does it offer 20 % better picture for 500 % cost increase ?
That makes it a poor buy and poor value for money.
Its like those that claim its worth spending £10 / metre on speaker cable and raising the cable off the floor to "improve its sound"
There are huge rip offs in home cinema, like the £100 HDMI cables that magazines will swear blind are worth it, when its been proven they arent.
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as you go up the scale, trying to squeeze the last drops of quality out of what is already a digital medium, the 20% quality / 500% cost analogy you used just gets tighter and tighter. I guess it's all about getting that last 1% out, regardless of the cost. - and what is cost? this isn't an editors choice 'best value' player. It's probably terrible value for money - if you value your money.
what you're refering to as value is absolutly right, and I do aggree.. but as I've said, this value is subjective and depends on your income. It's completly relavite to the amount of cash you have to part with. I'd personally have a hard time updraging from a £150 player to a £300 at the moment, but perhaps the gains I would get would be worth it (forget about PQ for now) I would not even consider getting a unit with a value of £1000 + and a $15k unit is just absolutly out of the question - for me
If I were in a different bracket, the jump in cost might not mean so much to me, it may be neither here nor there, and therefore nor is value for money.
If I had a completly disposable income it would be a different story, providing it was a genuinly better unit.
and this will be likely market for this player. The sort of buyer who doesnt care how much it costs, or whether its good value for money or not. They just want to the best. The sort of person that goes to a custom installer and says "give me the best, dont care how much it costs" and gives the installer a blank cheque.
Thanks Rick. I'm not all sack cloth and ashes though
I still have a business to run, so there's a strong business case for the way I work. I know very well that I can't compete on buying power with the big high street retailers and internet box shifters. So I play to my strengths: Knowledge, technical expertise and service. It keeps the customer happy and I get great recommendations for future business.
Of coarse shouldn't knock the development of reference machines too much, or those that buy them, as they are funding the development of top end technology which then trickles down the range, and becomes standard in next years model.
The best has never been about value for money.
The best has never been about value for money.
It's a **** contest device and to the vast majority of 'players' it's ability means substantially less than its badge and price tag. Hi-Fi it's riddled with snake oil practitioners and people who buy the placebo effect, often driven by what they read in a review and hear. While this doesn't apply to all AV technology of course, there is lots of it around the more subjective things such as interconnects and digital media and I say that as someone who has spent quite a bit on 'kit' over the years. Speakers, massive difference, TV's huge too. CD players a bit, Amps quite a lot as is the case with headphone and turntables/stylus. Interconnects hardly any in most cases and I see Blue Ray players as much the same form the 3 different versions I have at home.
There is zero justification for such a spend but long live purveyors of high end kit, just don't try and kid me its MASSIVELY different or indeed noticeably different in quality to my 100, 300 or 400 pound Blue Ray player because we all know it simply isn't...and I don't give a toss what a computer application may tell me, I see with my eyes.
There is zero justification for such a spend but long live purveyors of high end kit, just don't try and kid me its MASSIVELY different or indeed noticeably different in quality to my 100, 300 or 400 pound Blue Ray player because we all know it simply isn't...and I don't give a toss what a computer application may tell me, I see with my eyes.
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Can someone point me towards some tests in which they've compared the output of the krell vs. a less expensive player? I've not been able to find a lot - I'm curious as to what ways the output would be different
On another note - I agree about the PS3, I don't know whether it's down to my slim model but it certainly has an off-putting whine to it!
Edit - just to add to what Housey said - I am interested in what the computer application might say because we can at least then establish whether it could even be possible to discern a difference with human eyes
On another note - I agree about the PS3, I don't know whether it's down to my slim model but it certainly has an off-putting whine to it!
Edit - just to add to what Housey said - I am interested in what the computer application might say because we can at least then establish whether it could even be possible to discern a difference with human eyes
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Agree with all your post, however I thought the quality of DAC used in the cd player would have a bigger variation on the sound than amps?
You look at any pro studio and they will place much more emphasis on the ADC/DAC than on the power amps.
And for those trying to justify hi-end kit like this Krell I started a thread in a pro-audio forum asking the opinion of professional audio engineers if hi-end Hi-Fi like Krell, Wadia, ect is a rip off and the overwhelming response was yes, it's snake oil.
Read here :-
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/moan-zone/470868-hi-end-hi-fi-rip-off.html
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Soldato
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I'm still standing by my thoughts on value / rip-off / not worth it.
nearly all high-end hi-fi and AV is such bad value for money that it's value for money doesnt even come into the equasion. I've stopped reading high end mags, but I'm pretty sure you would never see a rating for 'value for money'
How can a CD player that costs 10K be value for money as a CD player? it's not. but if that CD player contains a hand full of components which have a high cost to the manufacturer then those costs have to be passed on. If you have ever worked for a bespoke company and have ever had to go and get quotes for pieces which need special manufafacturing opperations, or tooling you will know that these costs can be astranomical. The buttons on such units might be hand-made, the chassis might be made in another part of the world, it might have a special finish, or it might be tested to destruction - none of these things may benefit it's performance, but it adds to the cost. and that is why value for money does not come into it. It's just not an issue.
It may just happen to be the best sounding or looking unit on the planet though - still does not effect it's 'value'
I bet that the really high end cables actually cost nearly as much to produce as they do to sell too. step away from thinking everything is a rip off, and think about what reasons a company might have for charging so much for a product - the number one reason, you will find is how much, in total taking everything into account how much it has cost to get it produced.
I've been holding off saying this until now, but a few weeks ago I visited the Linn factory and came out of the doors as a changed man. I wondered where the price of their gear came from, and on that day I found out. - hand made, designed from the bottom up using very expensive methods and no expenses spared. built completly to order, in very small batches whith nearly all the work being done in the UK, in particular their glasgow factory. You got to meet their engineers who might be responsible for one tiny aspect of an item, they work hard and have a home to go to. You see all of the millions of pouns fromt heir profits, going into buying state of the art equipment to print circuit boards, desinged for factories producing a constant stream of goods 24:7, but instead they're doing 5 boards at a time, if any. I remember picking up what looked like a normal RCA output jack (and it was) from a component bin, and the engineer said politly 'careful with that; they are very expensive' and I well believed him.
I saw the casing shop, where some of the amplifiers have case designs that push CNC engineering to it's limits! no expenses spared. we followed a piece of sheet metal from being punched, to folding, to coating and printing. even the guys folding small brackets that would never be seen would be chacking each fold with digital verniers and angle guages - everything was perfect. even down to the binding posts stamped into the chassis to hold baords in place were specially sourced / made to give the best possible contact.
The best thing about it was that not once did any memebr of staff force their opinion on you, or tell you somehting like 'this is the best' they were so modest and pledged that they simply let you make your own mind up. we listened to a £100,000 system and not one drop of ales pitch was used - an explanation of things when asked was always on hand, but not once was an offer made.
so snake oil or not, do some research into how such companies work flows, and the numbers they are dealing with to produce the best they can, and be thankful they are leading the way for other people to follow. better still go and visit one and get a proper insight, meet the people, the place and listen to, or watch the equipment for yourself. after doing so all views of value for money that you did have will be so far gone they will never come back.
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Im on my 4th PS3 from launch 60gb to the quieter 40gb ( i dont have a slim but have heard a mates and has the same fan stepup after a few mins) and they all are noisy, the 60gb being the worst.
The noise is not bad as far as fan noise goes but its the the whisper - louder - louder - louder still that annoys me and my ps3 is on a proper rack with about 10' of air space
I dont use my ps3 for bluray at all, the noise of the thing renders it useless IMO and ive not heard a quiet ps3 yet no matter how many people tell me they are silent !
Fan noise really does bug me so people will feel im mad but having spent about 6 years listening out for plasma fan noise and buzzing psus i think i am hyper sensitive to it !
Great to read you had an interesting time up at Linn.... Have to say there is nothing like personal experience to understand what goes into some gear, and why it costs what it does....
For sure some of the "Hi end" kit is snake oil or worse re-badged kit in a fancy box..... then there is some that is a genuine attempt to produce the best product possible.
Quite where people get the idea it's even meant to be value for money I have no idea.... Is a Porsche value for money, is a 600 graphics card,. http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=GX-122-EA&groupid=701&catid=56&subcat=1750 how about a 3+ grand camera..... Leica anyone ?
I don't read too many posts about people slagging off those items, I think a lot is about ignorance and a little knowledge is dangerous, as many keyboard jockies have no idea what goes into audio and AV kit.... well it's digital innit, so it's all the same
Excellent write up RB Customs, at least you appreciate the effort and detail that goes in behind the scenes, even if you never choose to own or feel it's worth the money.
Edit
Sorry missed this one http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=GX-230-AS&groupid=701&catid=56&subcat=1577...... WTF !
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Great to read you had an interesting time up at Linn.... Have to say there is nothing like personal experience to understand what goes into some gear, and why it costs what it does....
For sure some of the "Hi end" kit is snake oil or worse re-badged kit in a fancy box..... then there is some that is a genuine attempt to produce the best product possible.
Quite where people get the idea it's even meant to be value for money I have no idea.... Is a Porsche value for money, is a 600 graphics card,. http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=GX-122-EA&groupid=701&catid=56&subcat=1750 how about a 3+ grand camera..... Leica anyone ?
I don't read too many posts about people slagging off those items, I think a lot is about ignorance and a little knowledge is dangerous, as many keyboard jockies have no idea what goes into audio and AV kit.... well it's digital innit, so it's all the same
Excellent write up RB Customs, at least you appreciate the effort and detail that goes in behind the scenes, even if you never choose to own or feel it's worth the money.
Edit
Sorry missed this one http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=GX-230-AS&groupid=701&catid=56&subcat=1577...... WTF !
Some crap examples you gave there, though I can see the point you are trying to make. The difference between my old 911 GT3 and a 30K TT (for example) were vast and to me it justified its price in many ways. Speed, composure, prescience, feel none of which were subjective, they were empirical and when I came to sell it I lost less than I would in a TT. People don't complain about 911 GT3's (as just one example) for a very good reasons, the differences are vast when compared to cheap sporty 2 seaters. The issue with HiFi is the differences are MASSIVELY subjective and people (like me for example) get very tired of journals such as What HiFi trying to convince the masses that 10k kit is hugely different to 600 quid kit, for it simply isn't or that a £10 cable is crap compared to a £100 cable, or that if you are spending X on amps you should spend Y on cables, it's utter crap lapped up by nerds and people who like to talk about it to others of the same ilk.
I appreciate quality, I seek it where I can and have a nice collection of watches that cost many thousands. They tell time no better (often worse!) than a Swatch but I like them because they look nice and are really the only jewellery I would ever consider wearing. Like high end hifi they often contain very expensive components built to massively high standards and that you pay for and their value is utterly subjective. Thing is no one tries to make a component of their appeal how well they tell the time compared to a ten quid rip off. I can see why people 'value' high end kit, hell I have some myself but when I hear or see people (shops, gatherings, magazines) trying to suggest the differences of the high end kit are warranted due to the 'improvements' over low cost kit, such as CD players, I find it patronising, not least when the vast majority actually can't afford to buy it and never will buy it so regurgitate it based on little exposure to it.....based on what they read.
I too have spent time with both high end manufacturers and also the people who build the machines which create the digital media...and record much of the best quality outputs. I know the top engineers there have a similar view to me of high end kit. Money spunked up the wall for little or no discernible value which will cost and not pay back, something you can't say about a Patek Phillipe or 911 GT3...as examples. Long may it survive however, we all like posh stuff when we can!
I have little time for the "what Hi-fi's" of the world either, so agree with your sentiment.
It's easy for broad brush generalisations, so for sure some 10K isn't any better than £600 item.... But then some is !!!...... But by how much, well beauty lays in the eye of beholder...and the law of diminishing returns has kicked in....
As it does in cars, and all manner of things....
How much quicker per lap is a 911 over a Boxster, vs the cost difference..... Not as much as the boxster is quicker than a family hatch I guess....
For you the GT3 was worth the cost, that's great, and good people enjoy there interest..... For me I'd would consider worth the money, I'd quite happily settle for tidy 2nd hand Boxster.
Then these fine difference become more apparent to those that enjoy there chosen passion on a regular basis......... A bit like wine, if you don't drink it often it all tastes the same..... but if your a connoisseur you will tell the year and type of grape.....I've no idea how they do it, but I take their word for it.....
It's easy for broad brush generalisations, so for sure some 10K isn't any better than £600 item.... But then some is !!!...... But by how much, well beauty lays in the eye of beholder...and the law of diminishing returns has kicked in....
As it does in cars, and all manner of things....
How much quicker per lap is a 911 over a Boxster, vs the cost difference..... Not as much as the boxster is quicker than a family hatch I guess....
For you the GT3 was worth the cost, that's great, and good people enjoy there interest..... For me I'd would consider worth the money, I'd quite happily settle for tidy 2nd hand Boxster.
Then these fine difference become more apparent to those that enjoy there chosen passion on a regular basis......... A bit like wine, if you don't drink it often it all tastes the same..... but if your a connoisseur you will tell the year and type of grape.....I've no idea how they do it, but I take their word for it.....
I wonder, would any of these top engineers have had anything to do with the many poorly recorded albums I have or the concerts I've been to at which its been extremely difficult to pick out a tune!
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You accuse 9designs2 of giving cr*p examples however you then state 4 characteristics associated with cars 'none of which are subjective'. Specifically:
speed (for sure speed can be measured)
composure (subjective)
prescience (the ability of the car to see in to the future?? subjective i guess lol)
feel (again subjective)
Doesnt sound too far away from the magazine journalists that you lambast so much (not that I'm defending them)
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