Student protest today - spec me a sign

[Janesy B]

Except that I've already argued my point perfectly well about 5 pages ago and you always oppose me regardless of the subject anyway because you've got an irrational fear of those better than you in every possible way.

When someone makes me side with Biohazard, I know something very wrong has happened.

 

[Captain_Slick]

When someone makes me side with Biohazard, I know something very wrong has happened.

But you're a fictional character on the internet. Therefore there is no I.

 

[Janesy B]

But you're a fictional character on the internet. Therefore there is no I.

Ah, but you used to drive a beat up purple Mondeo and bought it to a motors meet once. Didn't you? So this means that you know I'm real and I know you are not a figment of my imagination. Sadly...

 

[Captain_Slick]

Ah, but you used to drive a beat up purple Mondeo and bought it to a motors meet once. Didn't you? So this means that you know I'm real and I know you are not a figment of my imagination. Sadly...

I've never been to a motors meet and I've never met you, or anyone off this forum.

My Mondeo was green.

 

[Janesy B]

I was convinced it was you. Oh well. Anyway, yeah, if you want to think that I don't like you because some how you are better than me then you are more than welcome to keep that illusion in your head.

 

[Captain_Slick]

I was convinced it was you. Oh well. Anyway, yeah, if you want to think that I don't like you because some how you are better than me then you are more than welcome to keep that illusion in your head.

K.

 

[semi-pro waster]

In the case of choosing whether to go to University, yes, it should be measured as one that makes you comfortably well enough off to pay back the loans.

If after obtaining your degree, it does not assist you in entering a career path whereby you can pay off the loan, why is it worth doing the degree in the first place?

So that means that say history or geology is less likely to be studied as there's often not such a good or obvious career path beyond "be a history teacher" or "be a geologist". I'm aware there's more options than that but they don't tend to be subjects that lend themselves to such a range of careers as say maths or business studies might.

I just think it would be a terrible shame if subjects are chosen almost purely on their earning potential rather than whether people enjoy them or are good at them.

Increased fees will provide more dissuasion to those looking to enter subjects where a degree will not likely further their career opportunities. I'd be interested to see figures from the protests and how many protesting are engineering and science students vs arts and media students. I suspect there are a damn sight more of the latter protesting these increases.

Maybe, maybe they're also more likely to have a social conscience and that's why they've gone into the arts if we're perpetuating stereotypes. All I'm saying there is that while it might be interesting it wouldn't really prove anything much - there may be correlation but you'd struggle to prove that they were protesting because they're doing an 'inferior' degree than those doing engineering and science.

 

[scorza]

Well if the degree you wish to take is not something that will secure you a decent future, surely it is time to wonder if your chosen degree is truly worth doing?

If you don't secure a decent future then you don't pay anything, simple as. It's if you end up around the average wage, as most graduates will be, that you end up the worst affected.

 

[Castiel]

It's incentive though, and burden of debt.

We all know it gets paid back after in certain circumstances, but that can have a real profound effect on the descision making or consideration.

Especially when faced with issues of low employment and economic growth, concerns of the over inflated housing market and the fact that they are the generation who are going to have to start paying for the frivoulous use of state money for our generation, and the older ones, through the course of their life.

Debt and money overall is a very real issue for young people, some of which might not have never even managed to earn money yet before going to uni, or not having a job since leaving school if they don't (1in4 I believe) (I did, but that's a different topic entirely).

Debt and Money is a very real issue for just about everyone, it is not limited to young people. In fact the burden of debt is a very real issue for millions of older people right now.

The issue is a failure to understand that as a country the options are limited, I am sure that we all would like University education to be free (as it is in Scotland), unfortunately for that to be a reality in England the amount of places available would have to dramatically decrease to enable the funding available to cover those that remain.

This is not ideal either, in fact it would only mean that most people would be denied the opportunity of a University education regardless of their ability.

What the Govt have proposed is a fair system (as far as it can be) whereby, everyone regardless of background or financial means can have a University education and defer the payment until they are in a financial position to repay the debt burden. Those in severe hardship will be eligible for grants and bursaries so will accrue no debt.

Does it sound scary to a 18 year old that he/she is taking on £30k of debt, well of course it does and this may well discourage some from taking the university route. This is not necessarily a bad thing as long as apprenticeships and vocational training is available as well and those with the most ability are offered scholarships or bursaries. (any university offering courses above the £6000 cap will be required to increase funding for these schemes, so Oxbridge and places like the LSE would in fact offer more free places than are currently available)

Now, for those who are prepared to assume the responsibility of their educational finances the Govt will advance them the necessary funds they need to get educated and then when/if they are in a financial position to begin to repay the loans, 9% of their gross wage above £21k is taken until the debt is paid or 30years is passed whichever is the sooner.

If at any time their income falls below this threshold, the repayments are put on hold until such time as their income rises. Interest on the loan is tapered from 0% at £21k to a maximum of 3% at £41k.

The overall cost of your university education will be little more than the average four door saloon car, and not many people find that debt to onerous at least once in their working life and the benefit to the individual is exponentially greater.

In the case of choosing whether to go to University, yes, it should be measured as one that makes you comfortably well enough off to pay back the loans.

If after obtaining your degree, it does not assist you in entering a career path whereby you can pay off the loan, why is it worth doing the degree in the first place?

Increased fees will provide more dissuasion to those looking to enter subjects where a degree will not likely further their career opportunities. I'd be interested to see figures from the protests and how many protesting are engineering and science students vs arts and media students. I suspect there are a damn sight more of the latter protesting these increases.

There are plenty of worthwhile occupations that pay less than the average UK salary. The good thing about the proposed loan system is that this is accounted for by the increased lower earnings limit and tapered interest rates.

 

[Biohazard]

Debt and Money is a very real issue for just about everyone, it is not limited to young people. In fact the burden of debt is a very real issue for millions of older people right now.

No, but the prosepct and perception of debt is very different at that age. Especially when dealing in considerable sums of money.

You and me are used to mortgage statements, credit cards and all the other debt happy ways to live your life.

They are not, and many grow up suspicious of credit in any guise.

The issue is a failure to understand that as a country the options are limited

I dissagree. We should make cuts elsewhere to protect the current setup.

'Aid' and nuclear weapons etc are a perversion in my mind when we need investment in our future; the generation being slated in here on a daily occurance.

I am sure that we all would like University education to be free (as it is in Scotland)

Probably won't stay that way in all honesty, but I can hope.

unfortunately for that to be a reality in England the amount of places available would have to dramatically decrease to enable the funding available to cover those that remain.

I know the funding issue is serious. They, funding issues, all are.

It's an issue of priority though, and its clear that many have very differing beliefs on what is appropriate and what is not in this current climate.

This is not ideal either, in fact it would only mean that most people would be denied the opportunity of a University education regardless of their ability.

I agree.

What the Govt have proposed is a fair system (as far as it can be) whereby, everyone regardless of background or financial means can have a University education and defer the payment until they are in a financial position to repay the debt burden. Those in severe hardship will be eligible for grants and bursaries so will accrue no debt.

The current government didn't propose defered payment, that's already in the system.

They 'tweaked' it a bit.

I don't think the proposals are completely shocking at all but I do have concerns over them; but its the prelude to the fiscal dissaster that is sticking in the throat of the masses of students.

They feel they are being punished whereas other sections of society causing far worse economic problems are not.

They are immune. Those who had an easy time in the system, who now caused the havock, are now calling for the next generation to be boxed in again.

/shrugs.

It's all dependent on your sociopolitical views.

I know exactly why the right jump up and down decrying all students as lefties and 'wanting the world' rhetoric; they just don't want anymore competition at the top where they sit. They want the exlusivity again, and to pass it to their children heridtary style

Does it sound scary to a 18 year old that he/she is taking on £30k of debt, well of course it does and this may well discourage some from taking the university route



This is not necessarily a bad thing as long as apprenticeships and vocational training is available as well and those with the most ability are offered scholarships or bursaries. (any university offering courses above the £6000 cap will be required to increase funding for these schemes, so Oxbridge and places like the LSE would in fact offer more free places than are currently available).

That availability is under question though, certainly in the private sector. It's taking away without ensuring there is adequate provision left behind.

Do you have more details on the funding formula?

Be interested to read that to try analyze it for its effect.

Now, for those who are prepared to assume the responsibility of their educational finances the Govt will advance them the necessary funds they need to get educated and then when/if they are in a financial position to begin to repay the loans, 9% of their gross wage above £21k is taken until the debt is paid or 30years is passed whichever is the sooner.

Hang on, this statement inclines that those previous to these changes weren't prepared to assume the responsibility of their educational finances?

You can't hold political descision to be the fault of those who are percieved to have benefited from it.

I've said before, we all know how student loans work!

If at any time their income falls below this threshold, the repayments are put on hold until such time as their income rises. Interest on the loan is tapered from 0% at £21k to a maximum of 3% at £41k.

Yes I know.

The overall cost of your university education will be little more than the average four door saloon car, and not many people find that debt to onerous at least once in their working life and the benefit to the individual is exponentially greater.

Not everyone has the ability or is in a position in their life to spend nearly £40,000 on a car?

This is the point, it's all very well as rich older people going .... 'look, what is it the cost of a BMW?'

It doesn't matter, a house, a flash car, a job in the city, these are things that are well beyond the reach for the majority of the country.

We'll have to agree to dissagree, but given the current circumstances the youth find themselves growing up in I think debt and money are some of the most pertinent issues to them.

Young adults are having a far harder time in this rescission than everyone else.

 

[Luseac]

It's the prospect of taking on that increased debt, and being able to pay it off in the circumstances of the long term unemployment and house prices etc.

But who's going to come knocking if you don't "pay it off"? This isn't the same as going down to the bank and borrowing £30k at the risk of repossessions/bankruptcy.

End up in a crap job? Nevermind, no payments going out.
Never end up in a good job? Nevermind, not only have I never paid anything back, but my debt will be wiped off.
End up in a job paying 25k? Nevermind only paying £30 a month.

This whole argument of not being able to afford it is just nonsense.

Do I think £9,000 a year is a lot? Yes. Would I still have gone to University if that's what I was having to 'pay'? Yes.

 

[Biohazard]

But who's going to come knocking if you don't "pay it off"? This isn't the same as going down to the bank and borrowing £30k at the risk of repossessions/bankruptcy.

End up in a crap job? Nevermind, no payments going out.
Never end up in a good job? Nevermind, not only have I never paid anything back, but my debt will be wiped off.
End up in a job paying 25k? Nevermind only paying £30 a month.

That's not really got much to do with what I said.

It's all about debt perception.

Those who are stuck in mediocre or average jobs will under up suffering more, and that would it seem be the majority.

Then this all ties into the appriopriateness of a degree, then your stuck going round in circles without a concrete example to play with.

This subject is cursed in all honest, far too many variables to come away with blanket statements.

This whole argument of not being able to afford it is just nonsense.

It might be to you, maybe not to others who might feel turned off by the proposition of taking on such high levels of debt.

Do I think £9,000 a year is a lot? Yes. Would I still have gone to University if that's what I was having to 'pay'? Yes.

Well that's you, that doesn't necessarily apply to everyone however.

 

[Luseac]

That's not really got much to do with what I said.

It's all about debt perception.

I completely see the "Whoa, £30,000 worth of debt? No thanks!" argument, and sure, who does like the thought of that?

However, surely my examples show how those inital 'perceptions' can be completly eased by sitting down with a calculator, pen and paper for 10 minutes and realising that in actual fact, you'll be fine and will only pay this debt off when you can afford to.

 

[Biohazard]

I completely see the "Whoa, £30,000 worth of debt? No thanks!" argument, and sure, who does like the thought of that?

However, surely my examples show how those inital 'perceptions' can be completly eased by sitting down with a calculator, pen and paper for 10 minutes and realising that in actual fact, you'll be fine and will only pay this debt off when you can afford to.

They know that already, student loans have been like this for a long time.

It's the amount of money you are going to have to pay back, in conjunction with living costs rising above inflation, housing costs almost unattainable, and constant wage suppression and now the interest etc

It's not a descision that can be taken on its own for many from low income families.

Such a high price tag will simply make the proposal out of thought for many, for wrong or right reasons.

But when the majority will on the whole only really achieve positions of £20-30k, you aren't anymore better off for this descision as we are going.

Tbh, the whole system needs reform. We won't get it though.

 

[Tombstone]

Its ultimately a pointless debate, as no matter what anyone says on here those who are against it will remain against it and those who are not against it will remain not against it. Its exceptionally unlikely that anyone on here is going to say "oh wait, hang on, you've got a point there, I can see why this is/isnt happening and will have to now adjust my opinion on it". Instead the whole "debate" is simply going to go round and round in circles until everyone gets bored of the thread and stops posting. Then it will pop up in another thread in a day or two, the same people will argue the same viewpoints and round and round it will go until the thread dies and so on.

What I would like is the government to give the students exactly what they want, then we can all go back to having something on the news other than students urinating on police vans and smashing windows.

 

[Biohazard]

What I would like is the government to give the students exactly what they want, then we can all go back to having something on the news other than students urinating on police vans and smashing windows.

The news is normally boring!

Not enough time to save their van, but enough time to think about sticking the 'police aware' sticker on it?

 

[PermaBanned]

I completely see the "Whoa, £30,000 worth of debt? No thanks!" argument, and sure, who does like the thought of that?

However, surely my examples show how those inital 'perceptions' can be completly eased by sitting down with a calculator, pen and paper for 10 minutes and realising that in actual fact, you'll be fine and will only pay this debt off when you can afford to.

So say i earn £1500/m (which is above average, no?), that would be £22/m at the current rates. To pay back 30,000 would take 1364 months. That's near as makes no difference 114 years.

I don't know about you, but i think it's doubtful if i'll even live that long.

 

[Luseac]

They know that already, student loans have been like this for a long time.

It's the amount of money you are going to have to pay back, in conjunction with living costs rising above inflation, housing costs almost unattainable, and constant wage suppression and now the interest etc

It's not a descision that can be taken on its own for many from low income families.

Such a high price tag will simply make the proposal out of thought for many, for wrong or right reasons.

But when the majority will on the whole only really achieve positions of £20-30k, you aren't anymore better off for this descision as we are going.

Tbh, the whole system needs reform. We won't get it though.

When it comes down to it, I am completely unable to understand how anyone will struggle to afford these new proposals. £30 a month on a £25k salary? Who cares?

I suppose the answer to that is, a lot of people by the looks of things. I just hope these people that have been protesting have had the opportunity to consider how the new proposals will effect them. Rather than joining the "let's smash up some tory stuff" bandwagon.

 

[Luseac]

So say i earn £1500/m (which is above average, no?), that would be £22/m at the current rates. To pay back 30,000 would take 1364 months. That's near as makes no difference 114 years.

I don't know about you, but i think it's doubtful if i'll even live that long.

And that's the beauty of it. Will the student loans company find themselves speaking to your executors and joining the list of creditors on your death estate? No.

Didn't pay it back, but spent a lifetime of paying an insignificant amount? Oh well, that's the states problem.

 

[PermaBanned]

And that's the beauty of it. Will the student loans company find themselves speaking to your executors and joining the list of creditors on your death estate? No.

Didn't pay it back, but spent a lifetime of paying an insignificant amount? Oh well, that's the states problem.

A lifetime of insignificant amounts adds up to a significant amount. I'm simply not willing to tie myself to that for the rest of my life.

Besides, how am i supposed to get money for basic human rights while i'm at uni?