Nissan Leaf: Future or Failure?

How do you work that out it is £5k per KW system fitted a normal house to cover electricity needs a 3-4kw system, which if my maths in the previous post is correct would mean you could power the car for more miles than you can drive it, In fact you could probably get enough from just 1kw.

How do I work it out? The way I explained in detail in the post you replied to:

The Leaf's batteries have a maximum charge of 24KWh.

So in order to charge them in 8 hours during the day, you'd need an average of 3KW (assuming 100% charging efficiency for the sake of simplicity).

A panel capable of generating 3KW peak costs about £17,500. That's noon on a blazing bright day in the middle of summer. You're not going to get peak very much in the the UK.

The £17,500 was the cheapest site I could find online to buy such a thing, so it's a very fair estimate. It can be more expensive.

A quick look indicates that the UK averages about 1/6th peak sunlight during the day. Frankly, I think that's a rather generous estimate. So you'd need ~6 times as much generating capacity because you're only getting ~1/6th of the solar input that the stated generating capacity is based on.



You're claiming that a PV panel that can generate 1KW in absolutely perfect conditions (e.g. midday on the equator in midsummer with a perfectly clear sky) could probably generate 24 KWh of charge during an average working day in the UK, including during winter.

That's absolutely and obviously impossible. Even with constant blazing equatorial sunlight every second, day and night, a 1KW panel would require 24 hours to generate 24KWh of electricity.
 
Gas turbines are only 60% efficient at best as has been said before in this thread, an IC engine is not going to be getting near that


Even when you couple a turbine to an engine and have turbine drive the crank you are still the wrong side of 40% afaik
 
i don't think the battery packs are the problem Clarkson and his followers would have you believe.

Its interesting reading from Johnny that his insight is still on its original batteries nearly 10 years on.

Clarkson and his followers like...the people at Tesla Motors who say Li-ion battery packs will drop to ~2/3rds max charge after about 100,000 miles and about 3 years?

Are you sure that the people at Tesla Motors are Clarkson's followers? If so, why?

Also, what about all the people who understand how batteries work and say the same thing? The companies that makes batteries, for example. All followers of Clarkson? You're sure about that?
 
I think those quick chargers are in the region of $45k?

Yes. You can't chuck 50KW into a home over normal lines. The price is not going to come down quickly. I'm not sure if it's available at all in the UK. 50KW is a lot. For comparison, standard mains electricity is a little under 3KW.
 
Saw a Fifth gear clip on this car recently, seemed quite impressive.

Combined cost to make both fuels + mpg from an electric car and a petrol car was 3 - 5 times less in the LEAF's favour. Never mind the savings at the pump, the running costs minus an engine would be a sizeable saving no?

No.

Bear in mind that 70% of the fuel cost for the petrol is tax that the government will still take from EVs. They don't at the moment because hardly anyone has one so the loss of tax revenue is almost nothing, but if EVs become anything more than a hugely expensive novelty political statement they will be taxed as much.

Look at the actual costs:

Leaf does about 3 miles per KWh. 1KWh is about 11p, so that's about 3.7p per mile.

A small petrol car could get 60mpg. Petrol is about £5.70 per gallon, so the apparent cost is about 9.5p per mile.

However, almost 70% of the petrol cost is tax, so the actual cost is about 2.9p per mile.

So...if the government wants to maintain its tax revenue from driving, which of course it will, then the fuel cost of running an electric car will be more than the current fuel cost of running a petrol ICE car.

Other running costs...yes, most of the would be lower because an electric motor is much simpler than an ICE. However, battery replacement costs are currently very high. I very much doubt if you'd get change from £5,000 for the battery in the Leaf and the continuous drop in maximum charge (and thus range) would bite hard very quickly. At the very least, you'd be looking at a new battery every 100,000 miles. Range would be down to about 45 miles by then and you'd really notice that restriction. So there's another 5p/mile in running costs for the Leaf.

If you compare like for like, it's clear that electric cars are currently more expensive to run than ICE cars (diesel or petrol, let alone cheaper options like vegetable oil). Advocates of EVs simply obscure the costs and rely on nobody checking.
 
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Yes. You can't chuck 50KW into a home over normal lines. The price is not going to come down quickly. I'm not sure if it's available at all in the UK. 50KW is a lot. For comparison, standard mains electricity is a little under 3KW.

Well thats just a sensible 13a plug and ring with not too pricey charger, afterall most houses have 100A. A contactor setup
could let you split the pack for double charger. No different to the oven, vacuum and kettle being on.
 
How do I work it out? The way I explained in detail in the post you replied

Your looking at it the wrong way, you dont need the panels to directly charge the car, all you need is a panel that over the year produces eough kwh. As you sale it to the grid and then buy it back, so you don't need anywhere near that power. A 1kw system which is 5k fitted should produce more than enough over the year.
 
Well thats just a sensible 13a plug and ring with not too pricey charger, afterall most houses have 100A. A contactor setup
could let you split the pack for double charger. No different to the oven, vacuum and kettle being on.
Apart from the fact that even with 100A you could only power things up to 24KW, if you turn every electrical item off in your house... :p

50Kw is indeed a lot, in order to get that sort of power you'd need a huge diesel genny... :D
 
Your looking at it the wrong way, you dont need the panels to directly charge the car, all you need is a panel that over the year produces eough kwh. As you sale it to the grid and then buy it back, so you don't need anywhere near that power. A 1kw system which is 5k fitted should produce more than enough over the year.

That's 1KW peak, under perfect conditions, i.e. midday midsummer on the equator with clear skies.

A 1KW panel would provide about 4KWh per day in the UK, according to estimates which I think are much too high.

That's enough to drive a Leaf for about 12 miles per day, and as I said I think that estimate is too high. I don't think the UK averages over a year the equivalent of 4 hours of midday midsummer equatorial sunlight per day.

According to that estimate, which I still think is too high, that "1 KW" panel generates about 45p of electricity per day. It would take 30 years just to recoup the cost of the panel, and that would be assuming that the panel works at the same efficiency for 30 years. It would then be about time to replace the panel completely.

You'd make more money putting the £5000 in savings.
 
I'm well aware thats peak, it's more like 3.4kw (actual real world data is 3-4kw system in the uk for 5000kwh a year) per day or ~3500 miles a year, which would be enough for most people, a 2kw system would be more than enough and at £10k far less than the 100k you said.

Offseting the cost you have:
goverment grants for home
goverment grants for large scale farms(homesun limited are offering free solar panels, fitted and maintained for 25years)
feed in tariff, allthough this is being cut, not sure by how much
then of course the green aspect.


England is a rip off as well panels are about 40% cheaper on mainland europe. Prices o ver the next 5years are set to plummet and at least double in effeicency.
 
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Oh and for those who questioned what would happen if we all started driving electric cars - it's simple - the Goverment would just start taxing them and their 'fuel' like everything else :D
 
Oh and for those who questioned what would happen if we all started driving electric cars - it's simple - the Goverment would just start taxing them and their 'fuel' like everything else :D

I'm pretty sure there would just be a VAT increase on electricity, no matter what the purpose.

I wonder if there is such a thing as an 'inductive' charger that would work if you parked your electric car beside a street lamp overnight?
 
That will never be a solution. it's to heavy, costly and complicated.
Batteries are fine, you just need electrical pick ups or hot swap stations.

Range extending alternatives are too costly but your alternative is electrical pick up? Errr...:p

I agree with the sentiment that hybrids or variations thereof are not the long-term answer, though. Battery swap stations are the answer imo. Fuel stations could have one massive charging station, you simply walk in and swipe your credit card and out plops a freshly charged battery in exchange for your duff one. Should be even quicker than refuelling.
 
80hp Gas turbine range extenders weigh 3kg, hardly too heavy nor complicated.

Battery swaps rely on all cars adopting the same size, this won't happen. Plus as battery technology moves on after the adoption of such a 'infrastructure' Im not sure where all of these options will be stored.
 
Range extending alternatives are too costly but your alternative is electrical pick up? Errr...:p

I agree with the sentiment that hybrids or variations thereof are not the long-term answer, though. Battery swap stations are the answer imo. Fuel stations could have one massive charging station, you simply walk in and swipe your credit card and out plops a freshly charged battery in exchange for your duff one. Should be even quicker than refuelling.

One is ibfastructure that is built once. The other adds cost to every car and isn't really a solutn. The infastructure what ever the goverement decides is going to cost hundread of billions, extra power stations and other infastructure. Good thing wth pick ups, it would be very eady to combine for self drive cars.


I don't see why battery packs won't be standadised, industrys standadise loads of things. New battery technology woukd just be put in the same container.
 
I still cant get my head around how these electric picks up would actually work? around 50% of a motorway journey would need to be hooked up to them, ie 30 min quick charge for 60 min run time., but of course not everyone uses the same stretch. The power demands of them all quick charging would be incredible, issues with weather that involves water let alone trying to leave at a slip road. How do you hook up to a busbar carrying 50GW and then cross the various lanes?

Yet you are happy to discount RE-EVs as 'complicated' :confused:
 
Would run in a similar way to third rail on the railways. You don't need quick charge although it would be better. A long distance journey might be 20miles to a majour road, then 100miles on a majour road, then another 20miles th other end. The end bits can allready be done by batteries, the majour road bits yiu use nothing abd charge your batteries at least partially.


I agree battery swaps is the easier option, but pick ups is the best solution. Especially if you incorperate sensors for self drive cars.
 
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