** Official World of Warcraft: Cataclysm Thread **

Haste in addition to reducing your weapon swing timers, increases the rate at which you regenerate energy (baseline as combat is 12.5 energy per second). At the moment, haste is a relatively strong secondary stat. So no, haste is a very good stat.

The previous site i linked you is basically what the guys at elitest jerks show stat wise but it looks at ur gear and reforges/chants/gem's you gear to maximize the available stats (u may see it saying on the dps meter stuff like 20k+ that's as it counts a full compliment of raid buffs with ur gear based on what you would be reciving which is adjustable in the options).

Cycle/Priority
The priority of finishers is as follows.

SnD > Rupture > Eviscerate using Sinister strike as ur combo point generator (also disregard the use 2 swords i mentioned seems i was wrong ohand is dagger :P told you my knowledge is limited ;) )
 
I'll try reading through it again, but last time i looked at that site, it was all swaheli!

As I've probably said a few places before, it can be pretty daunting. I certainly wouln't recommend signing up to ask any questions. In reality, you don't need to understand what's going on - for the most part you can skim-read and pick up what you need to know. Check out your stat weightings first of all, but don't bother with what each stat is worth, just look at your priority for reforging, what caps you need to hit and how much you need to hit them. Check out the gems to see if it's worth gemming hybrids (+20agi/+20hit) or pure (+40agi), and in the latter case, when it's acceptable to substitute a hybrid (e.g. a +20agi socket bonus from one red & one blue socket - +40agi for red, +20agi/+20whatever green/purple for a free +20 stats and no agi loss). Check out the enchants for your BiS for each item and acceptable substitutes until the price of maelstrom crystals plummets (happening now). Check out the rotation to see the best times to use what skills to absolutely max your DPS.

A note on enchants: for now, the shoulder enchants you get from Therazane and the head enchants you get from Dragonmaw will probably be the best (and possibly only - I don't know, never levelled an enchanter) options, and pretty damn cheap compared to buying the mats for profession enchants. You'll have no option for your belt - it'll always be ebonsteel belt buckle for the free gem slot. Whatever your profession is, you'll likely get a BiS enchant or equivalent from that to replace whatever's available for other people without that profession - leatherworking gives you a much better wrist enchant than anything that the enchanter profession has, tailoring does good things for your cloak, inscription gives you the best shoulder enchant to my knowledge (better than Therazane) and so on and so forth. Other professions just give you added bonuses without replacing enchants - blacksmithing for a free glove & wrist socket (doesn't replace enchantment), jewelcrafting for 3 +67stat gems, engineering for kick-ass cogwheel shizzle in engineering-only crafted helms.

You can get by fine with the odd bit of advice here & there, but there's a whole dark world of theorycrafting down there that'll drag you down and suck you dry if you let it, but you can just skim the creamy goodness off the top without ever venturing too far into the pit.
 
Cheers Deadbeat, Yeh i use ej as a skim read but shadowcraft basically does all the stat weight working out for you hence why i linked it as the first reply to his help. Wish i was combat would be nicer to give more experienced advice as appose to being limited by the sheer diff on stat/rotation/gear choices being a diff spec :(
 
Even a skim read is pushing it frankly.
Its all if, but, who, why, wherefore, if the moons out, if its a second wednesday, etc;

Can someone be kind enough to just do the following for me:
1) Explain WTF capping is.
2) Stats in order of preference.
3) When will i know when a stat is capped?

That should do me. lol.

Also, what talent tree gives the most DPS now anyway, as i have noticed that between patches/expansions, this changes.

My usual rotation:
Open with backstab or cheap shot -> SnD -> sinister upto 5 combos, eviscerate.
Or if its a boss, the above but instead of eviscerate, first time round, expose armor.
 
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#fMGZfGccocbRGo0h the spec.
Capping is about reaching a point where a stat's like hit/haste/crit/expertise reach a point where they no longer give you a worthwhile boost to ur dps usually that means another stat has become the one that will return the most benifit.

Really use that site i linked in my first responce it does all the stat weight work for you even if it looks to be wrong it isn't as ur gear progresses ur stats will change priority's based on what new options are availabe for you to reforge into. It will also stop saying expertise once it reaches the point where mob's will no longer dodge ur swings when attacking from behind.

From what i have read the main bulk of damage is from melee swings as combat so a dodged swing really hurts. Like if my rogue wasn't at 17% magical hit (for poisons as it's assassinations bulk dmg as appose to combat being melee dmg) i would see a significant drop in dps
 
Can someone be kind enough to just do the following for me:
1) Explain WTF capping is.
2) Stats in order of preference.
3) When will i know when a stat is capped?

That should do me. lol.

Also, what talent tree gives the most DPS now anyway, as i have noticed that between patches/expansions, this changes.


1) Capping is hitting a level of an attribute after which the benefits stop or decrease a lot. So you should always try to make the hit cap (so you never miss) first.

2) Stats are Agility >>> Hit (to cap) > anything else. So in general gem or enchant for agility, then reforge to hit (to cap) . This doesn't really matter until you get to heroic dungeons at 85 though.

3) This is given in Elite Jerks and can vary according to spec. Go to your character bar then hover your mouse over the characteristic there if necessary to check up if you have hit the desired level yet.

As for which PvE spec is best both assassination and combat are good - pick the one you like the style of the most.
 
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http://www.wowhead.com/talent#fMGZfGccocbRGo0h the spec.
Capping is about reaching a point where a stat's like hit/haste/crit/expertise reach a point where they no longer give you a worthwhile boost to ur dps usually that means another stat has become the one that will return the most benifit.

Really use that site i linked in my first responce it does all the stat weight work for you even if it looks to be wrong it isn't as ur gear progresses ur stats will change priority's based on what new options are availabe for you to reforge into. It will also stop saying expertise once it reaches the point where mob's will no longer dodge ur swings when attacking from behind.

From what i have read the main bulk of damage is from melee swings as combat so a dodged swing really hurts. Like if my rogue wasn't at 17% magical hit (for poisons as it's assassinations bulk dmg as appose to combat being melee dmg) i would see a significant drop in dps
The site just wanted me to reforge everything to expertise though...and i mean EVERYTHING. That cant be right surely?
Just redid my talents from this to this. Good choices?
My reasonings were that the stealth movement thing i dont need for instances/PvP.

Just trying to find an alternative talent tree too, either Assassination or Subtlety.
Im tempted to use one of these that ive come up with:
Assassination
Subtlety
 
1) Capping is hitting a level of an attribute after which the benefits stop or decrease a lot. So you should always try to hit the hit cap (so you never miss) first then

2) Stats are Agility >>> Hit (to cap) > anything else. So in general gem or enchant for agility, then reforge to hit (to cap) . This doesn't really matter until you get to heroic dungeons at 85 though.
How do i know if ive hit the cap or not though?
Plus, what you've said sorta contradicts what the others say, they're saying expertise, your saying hit?
And i do a lot of L85 Heroics, so whats this difference you mention?
 
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Info on cap levels can be found on EliteJerks - but factors such as spec affect it so you have to read through and pick the appropriate info.

While I am not a rogue expert, I believe hit (to the first break point) was always second priority after agility. However, it is relatively easy to get this so then focussing on expertise (to cap) is important. But make sure you hit at least the first hit break point - 241 (2%). This should be almost trivial though.

As for the info about heroics that was for new players so they don't waste money on gems and enchants before heroic dungeons as it really matters very little until then, and you upgrade gear very quickly.

Not sure if this will confuse you more, but for Combat specialisation the value of various attributes from EliteJerks is roughly:

Stat EP
Agility 2.7
Yellow Hit Rating 1.9
Expertise Rating 1.65
Haste Rating 1.5
Spell Hit Rating 1.4
Mastery Rating 1.2
White Hit Rating 1.1
Crit Rating 0.9

so from this you can see that basically you should go for agility first, then reforge to Hit (up to Yellow Hit Cap), then Expertise (to cap) and then Haste. You should also reforge AWAY from Crit if you can.

Problem is that this is a VERY simplified breakdown. So if you are keen to do cutting edge raiding (Dungeons should be fine) then there isn't much alternative to reading through the whole gory detail at EliteJerks. Its not that bad just time consuming (although I did Maths at Uni so may not be the best person to judge this.)
 
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How do i know if ive hit the cap or not though?
Plus, what you've said sorta contradicts what other say, they're saying expertise, your saying hit?
And i do a lot of L85 Heroics, so whats this difference you mention?

The site i linked assumes lvl 88 elite monsters ie raiding. Being stat built for raids will not have a detrimental effect during heroics.
Also Hit is a moot point as say for instance my warlock caster needs 17% for raids BUT the best in slot gear for t-11 heroic's has just slightly over 16% hit which gives a 1% chance to miss a spell but still does more dps than a hit capped gear set.
Same with assassination on my rogue i have like 10% chance to miss with a melee swing on a same lvl mob but i never miss poisons or specials (combo builder's finishers) This is why shadowcraft (rogues only afaik) is usefull as it will stat u accordingly taking away much of the leg work of you having to play trial and error, Just be sure to "reload from armory" once u pick a new spec as stat's change based on what ur talents bring to the table (namely precision the hit talent in the combat tree)
 
I am not a rogue expert but I believe hit (to the first break point) was always second priority after agility. However, it is relatively easy to get this so then focussing on expertise (to cap) is important. But make sure you hit at least the first hit break point - 241 (2%). This should be almost trivial though.

As for the info about heroics that was for new players so they don't waste money on gems and enchants before heroic dungeons as it really matters very little until then, and you upgrade gear very quickly.

3/3 Precision
241 (2%) Special's
1127 (11%) Spell
2523 (21%) White hit cap

To further add to ur responce :)
 
Again though, how do I know if I've hit this cap thing your on about. And again, am I aiming for a hit cap or an expertise cap?
Is there a certain value in those stats that once hit, going above it, its effectively capped? If so, what are those values?

And what's the preference (Is it the below?)?
Hit
Expertise
Crit
Haste
Mastery
 
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Again though, how do I know if I've hit this cap thing your on about. And again, am I aiming for a hit cap or an expertise cap?
Is there a certain value in those stats that once hit, going above it, its effectively capped? If so, what are those values?

And what's the preference (Is it the below?)?
Hit
Expertise
Crit
Haste
Mastery

The numbers are in ur charector sheet for ur melee.

As Jsbeer said 2% hit or 241 points of hit is what you should be at the other stats I dunno hence why i repetedly tell you to use the site shadowcraft as the site will aim to give you the stats you need, Removing the need to even have to know about the stats, I'm assassination without reading about combat more and playing the spec all the info i can give you number wise will be largly guesstimates.

A free site that helps re work ur current equip effortlessly is better than me trying to guide you with limited advice as i sure don't want to misinform you.
 
The site i linked assumes lvl 88 elite monsters ie raiding. Being stat built for raids will not have a detrimental effect during heroics.
Also Hit is a moot point as say for instance my warlock caster needs 17% for raids BUT the best in slot gear for t-11 heroic's has just slightly over 16% hit which gives a 1% chance to miss a spell but still does more dps than a hit capped gear set.


Of course in this situation you can always reforge to get the slight extra amount of hit needed to cap. Also while being stat built for raids will have a slight effect on performance in heroics, this is unimportant, and not something to be concerned about.


Finally here is a nice (and simple as far as these things can be) guide on stat caps for rogues:

http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/12/29/encrypted-text-slicing-up-hit-and-expertise-for-cataclysm-rogue/

Hope this helps....
 
Of course in this situation you can always reforge to get the slight extra amount of hit needed to cap. Also while being stat built for raids will have a slight effect on performance in heroics, this is unimportant, and not something to be concerned about.


Finally here is a nice (and simple as far as these things can be) guide on stat caps for rogues:

http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/12/29/encrypted-text-slicing-up-hit-and-expertise-for-cataclysm-rogue/

Hope this helps....

His toon has 2x the special cap in hit raiting :( 0/0 expertise. I'm playing with his toon for him on shadowcraft. But his new spec removed reviling strikes which is considered a special used in combat rotation so had to load up a stock tree to play with it.

It does want to reforge tons of his crit to expertise and a small amount of haste.

With gem/forge optimized he would gain just short of 1500dps
 
The numbers are in ur charector sheet for ur melee.
Character sheet?
You mean the armory page?

As Jsbeer said 2% hit or 241 points of hit is what you should be at the other stats I dunno hence why i repetedly tell you to use the site shadowcraft as the site will aim to give you the stats you need, Removing the need to even have to know about the stats, I'm assassination without reading about combat more and playing the spec all the info i can give you number wise will be largly guesstimates.
The reason im not using that site is that i refuse to believe that reforging everything to expertise is what i should be doing. Seems stupid.
Plus, how can it be 241/2%? As my hit rating is 518/4.31% and im not even trying to get a hit rating of that. 4.31 or 2.0% cant surely be the cap?
 
His toon has 2x the special cap in hit raiting :( 0/0 expertise. I'm playing with his toon for him on shadowcraft. But his new spec removed reviling strikes which is considered a special used in combat rotation so had to load up a stock tree to play with it.

It does want to reforge tons of his crit to expertise and a small amount of haste.
Thanks, thats sorta my point. Im not even trying to get hit ratings, yet its twice what the cap is, that cant be right?
Are we sure that these caps havnt changed with 4.1?
 
Again though, how do I know if I've hit this cap thing your on about. And again, am I aiming for a hit cap or an expertise cap?
Is there a certain value in those stats that once hit, going above it, its effectively capped? If so, what are those values?

And what's the preference (Is it the below?)?
Hit
Expertise
Crit
Haste
Mastery


As simple as I can make it (it IS quite complicated especially for rogues :eek:)
go for the following in order:

Hit (to 2% - 241)
Expertise (to 26% - 781)
Haste
Mastery
Crit


Reforge (using a online web reforging tool) to get the values of hit and Expertise stated, then get as much Haste as you can. Reforge AWAY from Crit as much as you can.

Note that all of these caps assume you're talenting into 3/3 Precision which you should always do.


Also check up:

http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/12/29/encrypted-text-slicing-up-hit-and-expertise-for-cataclysm-rogue/
 
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Hit (to 2% - 241)
Expertise (to 26% - 781)
Haste
Mastery
Crit


Reforge (using a online web reforging tool) to get the values of hit and Expertise stated, then get as much Haste as you can. Reforge AWAY from Crit as much as you can.
As mentioned above, im not even trying to get Hit points and its already double what the cap is?
Why reforge away from Crit? Surely thats handy as it increases the chances of a good hit?
So, regardless of the anomaly of Hit....get expertise to 26%/781 then try and get as much haste as possible, and where i cant, mastery?
Or does Haste have a cap too?
 
3/3 Precision
241 (2%) Special's
1127 (11%) Spell
2523 (21%) White hit cap

To further add to ur responce :)

Stat caps are weird for rogues - I thought it was always 8% for abilities & 17% for spells (poisons, in this case)?

BoomAM, capping made simple:

We'll use hit cap in this example. Your hit rating is the sum of all of the hit rating bonuses from your weapons, armour, trinkets etc. This is a raw value - if you've got a chest armour with +291 hit, a triket with +321 hit and a weapon with +130 hit, you've got a total rating of 742. Your hit % is derived from your hit cap. New paragraph to avoid block'o'text.

As a dual-wielder, your base miss chance will be different and more complicated, so I'm going to use the stats from my own class, which uses a two-handed weapon. With a hit rating of 0, I have a base miss chance of 8% - every time I swing my weapon, or use a melee skill, there's an 8% chance that I'll do absolutely nothing at all. Increasing my hit rating lowers the chance I'll miss.

Now, back to the stats. Each 120 rating (a little more, something like 120.125, but we'll keep it simple) increases my chance to hit by 1%. A rating of 742, as in the example above, would increase my chance to hit by 6.176%, leaving a much smaller 1.824% chance that I'll fail to hit anything for each and every attack or melee ability. If I had 961 rating, I'd have a hit of 8%. I'd never miss - never ever ever, unless I had a debuff that screwed up my hit chance. If I had 1200 hit rating, I'd have a hit of 10%, and I'd still never miss - I can happily reforge 240 rating away from hit into another stat, like mastery or haste, and still never miss under normal circumstances.

Expertise works the same, but instead of a % you get a solid value, which you can see along with your other stats in the melee panel on the right hand side of your character screen. Even if you hit with your attack, there's a chance that your target will either dodge out of teh way or parry it, resulting in no damage being done and no effects being applied. Whereas hit relates to everything - from a lv1 critter to a lv88 raid boss - expertise depends on your relevant levels. If you swing at a mob even one level below you, they won't be able to dodge or parry. For each level the mob is above you, there's an increasing chance that they'll be able to dodge or parry your attack. Keep in mind that players cannot dodge or parry an attack that comes from behind them - mobs and bosses can dodge an attack from behind, but not parry.

Your goal here is to make it so that your target cannot dodge or parry any of your attacks. You've already made sure that you'll always hit your target by capping your hit rating, and thus your chance to hit - now you make sure that whenever you hit, tehre's no chance your target will be able to defend. Each 30 expertise rating gives 1 expertise, and your goal is to reach 26 expertise, a total of 780 rating (or 781 rating using more accurate numbers). If you hover your mouse over the expertise part of your melee stats, you can see what chance your target has to dodge or parry your attacks depending on their level - it'll show you mobs of your level and up to 3 levels higher, since raid bosses are 3 levels above the level cap.

At the expertise cap of 26, you'll notice that no mob of any level can dodge your attacks, and only mobs 3 levels above you can parry them - it'll be at 7.5% chance. This seems high, but it doesn't come into question since the nonly mobs of this level you'll be fighting are raid bosses, and you should always be behind a raid boss - they can't parry from behind. Make it so that they can't dodge by getting your expertise up to 26 and every attack you use will hit and get through their defences. Many classes have a glyph or talent that adds to their expertise, so you probably won't have to get all the way up to 781 rating.

Apologies if that's a bit condescending, but I've only been playing WoW for 6 months or so and it took me a while to get my head around all this stuff. That's capping in a nutshell - a really long, boring nutshell. You also get caps for crit & haste, but they're more class-specific and mostly not available with the current tier of raiding gear.







BIG SPACE because you may well just skip past all of that, and I wouldn't blame you. A note on the stuff you buy with honour, justice, valour & conquest points - yes,t ehy're roughly equivalent for each tier (honour & justice on the lower tier, valour & conquest ont he higher tier) but the gear you buy with each is dependant on what you're using it for. Honour & conquest points are earned from PvP and will only really be useful in PvP. They'll all have a stat on them called resilience, which reduces the damage you take from other players - essential in PvP, useless in PvE (dungeons & raids etc). Justice & valour points buy stuff without this stat on them - they'll only have the more general stats like crit, hit & mastery. Essentially you do PvP for PvP rewards so you can do better PvP, and you do PvE for PvE rewards to do better PvE. You can sub one in for the other if you have to, but they'll only ever be temporary - you'll want to replace any PvE gear you use for battlegrounds with PvP gear for the damage reduction against other players and you'll want to swap out PvP gear for PvE stuff with better stats for dungeons & raiding.

Like I said, it's a dark, scary world down there...

Edit: To clarify, your expertise won't be 26%, it'll jsut be 26. Your hit will be in %, your expertise is a straight value. And you're reforging away from crit because, even though a higher crit will increase your damage, a higher haste will increase it more for the same expenditure of stat points.
 
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