No but it can be held as libellous without evidence of any claims they make.
Asked to resign
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No but it can be held as libellous without evidence of any claims they make.
What are the rules around unfairly negative references? Of course, John Doe may have missed 5 deadlines, but he may also have had a major personal issue during that time that his employer was sympathetic to, and his performance otherwise was absolutely stellar. That overly negative reference could impact future career prospects and while not untruthful it wasn't the whole truth.
I guess it's a case of suing and providing evidence that one's general performance was very good, and the highlighting of one small area of poor performance that there were fair and accepted reasons for is unreasonable and will cause damage.
Caporegime
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I think the point is that either way, you are leaving that place OP.
It is the easy way or the hard way.
The easy way is negotiate the best settlement as you possibly can. Work out a redundancy figure for 2.5 years, take that and walk away with a reference that they said will probably has more positive in than you fight them to tribunal.
Either way, you are no longer working there again. Use your time that while you are in a job, look for another job.
It is the easy way or the hard way.
The easy way is negotiate the best settlement as you possibly can. Work out a redundancy figure for 2.5 years, take that and walk away with a reference that they said will probably has more positive in than you fight them to tribunal.
Either way, you are no longer working there again. Use your time that while you are in a job, look for another job.
Caporegime
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Employment law is NOT my field but...I would think that surely down to John Doe to explain to the next employer that because he was in an minor car accident that he was off those sick days and missed those deadlines.
The thing one normally sue for is defamatory grounds, that a reference hinders one's prospect as it is baseless. Hence references is best based on facts when talking about the negatives. It is dangerous for a former employer to say "I don't think John Doe will fit in your company because his personality is cold and he does not get on with his colleagues" It is best to leave that out totally. At most, one might be able to put "John Doe has never attended any Office Christmas Parties or after work drinks (if one was taking a register!)"
I am welcome to be corrected if wrong though!
Sounds like a case of "we wil pay you x amount to leave because your face doesn't fit" and they don't want to make the position redundant/or it will cost more to pay redundancy and they can't fire you without exposing themselves to possible legal action.
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The poster said companies couldn't give a bad reference - I was just pointing out that was wrong.
It was a statement from him not a question.
Soldato
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It is all about fact. You can say whatever you want in a reference as long as you can back it up with fact.
I'm not sure fighting it will be great. Ultimately employers can always pin something on you if necessary.
Why not suggest that you will not be handing in your resignation at present, but you will start looking, hard, for another job. When you find one, you will hand in your resignation and serve appropriate notice.
This keeps you in work, yet shows to them that you are serious about leaving. Ultimately, you don't want to stay somewhere you aren't wanted anyway. This also has the added benefit of making your current employers even more "supportive" of your efforts in finding a new role.
Why not suggest that you will not be handing in your resignation at present, but you will start looking, hard, for another job. When you find one, you will hand in your resignation and serve appropriate notice.
This keeps you in work, yet shows to them that you are serious about leaving. Ultimately, you don't want to stay somewhere you aren't wanted anyway. This also has the added benefit of making your current employers even more "supportive" of your efforts in finding a new role.
Most managers won't bother giving a negative reference though. What do they care where you end up as long as they don't have to deal with you anymore? They would have nothing to gain and they'd think that if you found out you might come back to "have a word" with him 
Soldato
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Nobody can be sacked on the spot. Even if you were caught with your hand in the safe you couldn't be sacked on the spot. You would still be entitled to a review of the incident and an opportunity to state your case.
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I'd play along to avoid hassle - direct your resources towards finding your next job.
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What I mean is there are things that do not have to be said, things that can be worded in certain ways that can be interpreted in more ways than one, yet technically true/positive.
You can get a very bad 'good' reference... for quite a few reasons... I've seen more than one!
My advice:
I don't work in HR but this is how I would go about it - hope it helps.
Good luck.
- Seek professional assistance (which I believe you are doing).
- Do not get pushed into doing anything unfair or allow yourself to be rushed on a decision.
- Be wary of what you are saying at all times, how it can be construed, and how it could be used against you.
- Formalise the process whether it is from a legal standpoint or not - signed agreements etc.
- As part of the formalisation, agree on a granular level what the expectations are of both parties for the severance. Deadlines, deliveries etc.
- Definitely go over what happens if they need to consult you regarding your work AFTER your last day. If I were you then it would be nothing. You may wish to state a consultancy fee will apply after the date.
- Explicitly state that any issues with deliverables must be brought to your attention long before your last day. It is not fair to say a load of your work is wrong/crap on your last day and for you to fix it after your last day.
- Achieve what is expected of you during your "notice" to the bare minimum as dictated by the aforementioned expectations. Achieve them well but to the barest minimum.
- Make it a condition in the agreement that you will receive written references from two of them on company headed paper which in turn is signed by them. This is supplementary to a phone reference and NOT a replacement.
- Prepare for the worst. This still has the potential to get nasty and this process serves only to protect and defend you should such a thing happen.
- Save ALL correspondence regarding this, whether its printouts, Outlook Archives. whatever.
- Get EVERYTHING in writing
I don't work in HR but this is how I would go about it - hope it helps.
Good luck.
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I think this is much more simple than is being made out. Read the original email the OP was sent. Clearly they state "Thanks for attending our meeting this afternoon, during which you indicated that your intention is to resign."
The employer has officially done nothing wrong. They owe you nothing. As far as they are concerned and of what is recorded with evidence (i.e. the email sent) they are under the impression that you have stated you want to resign. Forget the meetings where nothing was officially recorded. Have you ever, in writing, specified that you intened to resign? The answer is no. So all this takes is for you to write back an email to them saying something like:
"I must inform you that I have no intention of resigning and anything I have said in previous correspondence with yourselves has been wrongly assumed as my intention to resign."
You then carry on as normal, and start looking for another job.
You need do nothing else. If they REALLY, want you out and are prepared to call your bluff on the legal front, they will either:
1: Go down the "ugly" route they mentioned to you which will involve dirty tactics bringing up things that breach contract. This is where you lawyer up and get ready for a constructive dismissal case. If you are not a member of a Union then join now.
2: They will go down the redundancy route. This is a whole other kettle of fish but can also turn up cases of constructive dismissal.
Until either option 1 or option 2 kicks into action, you don't need any advice as there is nothing to act on. They are basically trying to move things along by getting you to feel guilty and initiate a resignation. DO NOT DO THIS.
The employer has officially done nothing wrong. They owe you nothing. As far as they are concerned and of what is recorded with evidence (i.e. the email sent) they are under the impression that you have stated you want to resign. Forget the meetings where nothing was officially recorded. Have you ever, in writing, specified that you intened to resign? The answer is no. So all this takes is for you to write back an email to them saying something like:
"I must inform you that I have no intention of resigning and anything I have said in previous correspondence with yourselves has been wrongly assumed as my intention to resign."
You then carry on as normal, and start looking for another job.
You need do nothing else. If they REALLY, want you out and are prepared to call your bluff on the legal front, they will either:
1: Go down the "ugly" route they mentioned to you which will involve dirty tactics bringing up things that breach contract. This is where you lawyer up and get ready for a constructive dismissal case. If you are not a member of a Union then join now.
2: They will go down the redundancy route. This is a whole other kettle of fish but can also turn up cases of constructive dismissal.
Until either option 1 or option 2 kicks into action, you don't need any advice as there is nothing to act on. They are basically trying to move things along by getting you to feel guilty and initiate a resignation. DO NOT DO THIS.
Or option 3 - Visit your GP and get signed off on stress. I don't normally condone it but they deserve it in this instance. Imagine the smugness you will feel for messing with them
It's very real though. My job is currently at risk for the third time in 3 years. I genuinely am very stressed about it. I have sympathy for the OP, but I genuinely believe you have to stick this one out and let them make the move here.
Oh and lastly, maybe try and reign in the attitude and drunken ramblings in your next job
We all have to work with (and for) bellends - how we deal with them dictates how competent we really are in the corporate world
We all have to work with (and for) bellends - how we deal with them dictates how competent we really are in the corporate world
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Not always the case AFAIK - in cases other than blatant gross misconduct its often preferable to pursue this option first rather than sacking. That is they might well have more than enough to sack someone but it is still easier for them and in many cases the other party to simply ask them to resign.